Minniť? Round ball? Sabot? Rifling twist rate? Help.

Minniť? Round ball? Sabot? Rifling twist rate? Help.

This is a discussion on Minniť? Round ball? Sabot? Rifling twist rate? Help. within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Ball, Minniť, sabot? Rifling twist rate? Help! Ok, I got my second black powder firearm, this one a .50cal inline percussion. At first it wasn't ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Minniť? Round ball? Sabot? Rifling twist rate? Help.

    Ball, Minniť, sabot? Rifling twist rate? Help!
    Ok, I got my second black powder firearm, this one a .50cal inline percussion. At first it wasn't reliable firing the cap, but a little file work on the nipple fixed that. In the junk collected in the powder cabinet at the gunshop I found Minnie bullets and balls that fit, as well as some solid bullets that resemble the Remington "Buckhammer" slugs, but with wide grease grooves. The local D ick's sporting goods has sabot bullets in various weights. During test firing I loaded FFFG powder at 40gr behind a Minnie lubed with "Bore Butter" and it stabilized at about 20 yards and hit a paper plate. For convenience I made some paper cartridges (that worked... until I bit the end off like the guy on Youtube did, only I got some tasty black powder in my mouth). Development of those will continue.

    Anyway, now that it's reliable, does anybody know what style of projectile is correct with a given twist rate? Is there a chart somewhere or a rule of thumb? Anybody have any advice on powder weight? I do know two things, one: Minnie bullets need a certain minimum powder charge to expand and grip the rifling, and two: I don't want to blow my face up. Is there a projectile that works well in any barrel? It has an old but well kept Weaver scope on it, 4X, and I want to be able to shoot it at at least 100yds to take advantage of that. For hunting it's probably realistically going to be shot at 30 to 40yds max.

    And while I'm overloading everyone with questions, What about the pre-formed powder pellets? Some even come in a kit with sabot bullets and pellets of powder. Does anybody know how those taste?

    Thank you kind black powder Gurus.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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    Basic rule of thumb, if your twist is slower than 1:48 you want to shoot a round ball through it. 1:48 will shoot a round ball or saboted bullet with decent accuracy. Faster the 1:48 use a sabot. I believe most modern in line guns are 1:12-1:18 range.

    As to the powder your using. Check the manufacturer, most modern in-lines recommend against using true black powder. Synthetic powders are not really rated as FFg/FFFg or FFFFg.

    Does the gun use a shotgun primer or a #10 cap for the ignition? Synthetic powders can be a problem with a standard #10 percussion cap. Not hot enough. If it uses a #10 cap, I'd recommend RWS caps, they're about the hottest on the market.

    Doesn't matter what you use, it all tastes like crap.
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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    It shoots a # 10 percussion cap on a standard nipple.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Round ball should be 1:90
    Slug should be 1:42

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    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    When you say slug, do you mean Minnie, or the solid bullet kind of thing I found? I'm guessing that based on surface area a sabot and a solid bullet or Minnie should be the same.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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    Personally, I like either a patched round ball or a TC hunter maxi ball. I recommend buying a couple of different ones and try working up a load in 5gr increments. Run a cleaning patch between each round. Start around 65gr and go from there. You will be sure to find a load that works.

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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    I shoot 80gr of RS Pyrodex under a .10 patch & .490 Round ball in a T/C New Englader 1 in 48 twist, As accurate as I can get ; )
    H/D
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Many BP rifles are made with a compromise barrel of 1:40 or so. This give mediocre results with variety of projectiles. For a round patched ball, you will want to make sure and not use any lube to assist the PB down the barrel. The reason for this is because the rifling is fast for PB, and by applying to much butter on the patch it will result in something called " stripping the bore " in which the patch slides over the L&Gs instead of grasping them, and getting a good rotation, which will result in an unstable projectile and poor accuracy at even 50 yards. An old mountain man taught me to put the patch in your mouth, getting it a little moist, and that aids in pushing the ball down the bore.
    DO NOT, pound the ball with the ramrod onto the powder charge. This crushes some of the powder into smaller pieces which will result in irregular burn rates. Steadly push until it is fully seated on the charge.
    A trick is to pour your charge in, drop a ball on top, insert the ramrod until it rests on the ball. and then mark the ramrod at the muzzle where it stops as a reference.

    For best results with ball, a 1:90 or slower is recommended, however, if you follow my instructions, you will have good results out to 75 yards with ball, which is at the end of its ballistic game taking capability to be humane.

    Now, most 1:40 barrels can work well with a saboted round. For this I like a Hornady 44 XTP bullet over a 90 grn charge.

    For PB, I recommend starting at 50 grn and working up to 90 or a max of 100. This is to make sure you do not reach a velocity threshhold where the patch begins to "strip the bore" which can happen.
    A natural benefit of a PB (patched ball), is that it helps scrub out some fouling as it goes out. The barrel should be kept as clean as possible for each shot, to simulate a clean bore, as it will be before you take the first shot on opening day. I have found that you only need to swab the barrel(if its smooth with no pitting) is about every 6 shots, while on the range. But remember, you do not want that bore or patch to be slick with butter, you want a tight fit.

    Another thing to remember, this a primitive weapon, compared to the new fangled in line loaders of today. Many of the projectiles sold at WALLY WORLD, and other places are designed to take advantage of the faster twist rates of these " cheater" BP rifles and will not stabilize in the slower twist of the older caplock designed guns.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I was always told the twist rate is determined by velocity and bullet length.
    http://tmtpages.com/twistrate.htm

    Michael

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    oops!I just reread your original question, and see now that you have an inline. Its probably good for just about any projectile as it probably has a pretty fast twist rate. I wouldnt use patched ball in it, since it prefers a really slow twist. I dont fool with inlines, as I am somewhat of a purist when it comes to BP season, prefering to take the challenge in the spirit of the season in which it was originally intended..primitive weapons, of which I dont consider inlines with scopes as such, so my knowledge is pretty much non exisitant here.
    Doodle likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Patched round ball is fine out to 50 yards in a fast twist inline. After that the groups open up a bit.

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    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    I had no idea that much powder was safe. I have two pounds of FFFFG and I started using that in my first BP gun, an old kit Deringer. I think I probably err on the side of caution too much, I used 20gr with that and a patched ball.

    Ok. got a good place to start. thanks.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    I had no idea that much powder was safe. I have two pounds of FFFFG and I started using that in my first BP gun, an old kit Deringer. I think I probably err on the side of caution too much, I used 20gr with that and a patched ball.

    Ok. got a good place to start. thanks.
    ffffg powder is priming powder. It is used for the flash pan on flintlocks. Do not use it in your pistol! I could be wrong but I have never heard of it being used safely for a charge in a barrel.
    Are you sure you didn't mean fffg?

    Michael

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    No, it's FFFFG. 4 F's. The can is marked "Black Rifle Powder". I mis-typed it in the original post.


    HMMM. Maybe I can us it in an AR?
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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    4f is a little fine for most applications. and since your rifle is an inline, I'd wager that it's gonna really shine with a sabot. I've had very consistent performance out of the hornady xtp 240g sabot bullet...out of all my modern inlines. I'm currently shooting IMR white hot powder, but that's not ideal without using 209 primers.

    I'd recommend trying some triple 7 loose powder, 2f, and the hornady bullets. A previous poster mentioned the RWS caps, and I second that...for little caps, those blow a good amount of fire.

    I also recommend staying away from powerbelt bullets. They are the fussiest projectiles I've ever seen. Real problems arise with guys who shoot triple 7 pellets, for the following reason: The powerbelt requires a fouled bore to run like it's supposed to...to get a proper gas seal, and, consequently, good even propulsion. The triple 7 pellets, when ignited, leave a crusty little ring within the bore, which prevents that seal from developing. This doesn't tend to make a rifle lose much in the way of practical accuracy...a deer's a pretty good sized target.....but I tend to like a little precision in my equipment and the powerbelt has never performed like I expect it to.

    my $.02

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