Your Line in the Sand Part 1 - Page 2

Your Line in the Sand Part 1

This is a discussion on Your Line in the Sand Part 1 within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; does the continuation of my life require that i act with deadly force? ...it could be that my life depends on having 'things' medicine or ...

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Thread: Your Line in the Sand Part 1

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    does the continuation of my life require that i act with deadly force?

    ...it could be that my life depends on having 'things' medicine or food and shelter
    thus i must include them in my defense of life.

    if conditions are such that it has come to this, than how the law may consider my actions is moot.
    i will be acting on the most basic of human nature--survival
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Thank You Roger for passing on Guantes thoughts. With that quote you have answered something for me on my own mindset that I could never put into words. But I knew if I got involved in a situation I would be doing everything I could to kill the BG. Yes I am only trying to stop the threat but at the same time my actions would be to kill not just stop. But this quote explains my thoughts "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" just never had the words before.
    Harryball likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Due to the recent events in Newtown, I requested that this thread be moved from the "training" portion of the forum, to here in order to introduce this topic to a much larger group of people.

    I have seen a huge increase of new people coming into the world of self defense since Newtown and I believe that has partly to do with the fact that many newer people are evaluating their very personal "line in the sand." I think that many people finally realized that they would be willing to die for the children under their protection and decided that they were going to have to learn to fight so they do not die.

    This topic is all about looking at your very personal line in the sand, thinking it through, and coming up with a situational dependent plan that allows us to make the very best decisions that we can.

    This topic is often distorted by two very distinct groups of people at the two extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. We have the "The only way for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing" group and the "I will only get involved if it involves myself or a family member" group.

    These are what I call "the bumper sticker" crowd because they have attached themselves to a simple prepackaged plan inside of a very complex and fluid problem.

    Beware of the two extreme ends of this debate, they have gravitated towards the easy answers and have probably not given this topic the thought that it deserves.

    There are many shades of grey in this topic and here is a good place to get your thoughts together and your head straight without the bumper sticker crowd shouting over the top of those of us that would like to nail this down inside of our very personal situation.

  4. #19
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    I missed this the first time around. I agree with just about everything you wrote. One thing hit me as off though. In the initial post you were talking about the line in the sand and how one man could not tell another where his line should be. I agree that it is an individual decision for the most part. However location has nothing to do with where that line is, at least not for everyone. In my adult life I've lived in Oklahoma, California, North Carolina, and Kentucky. During this journey I've been in the military, a private citizen, and a member of law enforcement. My line in the sand has not moved one inch during this time. Castle Doctrine, make my day laws, concealed carry laws, and the rest change legal situations but not personal responsibility. When a person believes they should act, they should act. The ramifications of the event will play out but that doesn't change the initial situation one iota. If I need to turn someone's lights out to keep my family safe I will do so. If the state I happen to be in does not agree with that decision it is something that I'll have to deal with.

    As far as the Righteous Family Man or Righteous Warrior- I believe that many of us are both. If my family is with me they are my one and only priority. I will not worry about saving your family if I'm not sure mine is safe. If they aren't with me or have already made it to safety then (and only then) do I believe I have the moral responsibility to try to keep everyone else safe. That may be a "line in the sand" of its own, but it is what it is.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
    - Lt. Col. Oliver North

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array gunslingergirl's Avatar
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    Great comments, at least until I went cross-eyed over the huge paragraphs... ;)

    "Don't go stupid places, and do stupid things with stupid people."

    Gosh, but those are the places where life's best adventures occur. I wouldn't have any good stories to tell of all the stupid things I've done if I followed that advice. :) :)

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    I missed this the first time around. I agree with just about everything you wrote. One thing hit me as off though. In the initial post you were talking about the line in the sand and how one man could not tell another where his line should be. I agree that it is an individual decision for the most part. However location has nothing to do with where that line is, at least not for everyone. In my adult life I've lived in Oklahoma, California, North Carolina, and Kentucky. During this journey I've been in the military, a private citizen, and a member of law enforcement. My line in the sand has not moved one inch during this time. Castle Doctrine, make my day laws, concealed carry laws, and the rest change legal situations but not personal responsibility. When a person believes they should act, they should act. The ramifications of the event will play out but that doesn't change the initial situation one iota. If I need to turn someone's lights out to keep my family safe I will do so. If the state I happen to be in does not agree with that decision it is something that I'll have to deal with.

    As far as the Righteous Family Man or Righteous Warrior- I believe that many of us are both. If my family is with me they are my one and only priority. I will not worry about saving your family if I'm not sure mine is safe. If they aren't with me or have already made it to safety then (and only then) do I believe I have the moral responsibility to try to keep everyone else safe. That may be a "line in the sand" of its own, but it is what it is.
    When it comes to location here is something that I wrote on that issue.

    Growing up in Mayberry and the reality of the streets

    This topic/debate is a lot like the open carry topic/debate in that many overly opinionated people have zero experience in the ruthless reality of the street. Many of the people that preach a moral superiority in their line in the sand live in a world that is completely different from people that live in the big bad city.

    It is easy to proudly exclaim that you will fight all evil as soon as you see it when the nastiest gang in town is the local highschool football team. The streets are an entirely different world. And the criminal organizations that run them, run them for big money.

    In the big cities, if you correct the bad behavior of some young punk, you may bring the entire weight of a multi-million dollar criminal organization down on you and your loved ones.

    It always cracks me up when I see small town people trying to tell big city people how to act. What some may see as being scared is actually nothing more than being smart. They have their business and I have my business. As long as the two never cross paths, I will mind my own business.

    If you do not know the streets and the rules of the streets, be very careful about how you address your line in the sand. You may very well be drawing a line based on ignorance.

    The rules of civilized people are an entirely different set of rules from the rules of the street. Correcting bad behavior in Beverly Hills is an entirely different world from correcting bad behavior in South Central Los Angeles. If you do not know the substantial difference between the two concepts you need to get some education from some former "street" so you do not have to learn the hard way.

    The street can be absolutely unforgiving and ruthlessly violent.

  7. #22
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    I never professed to be a deep thinker BUT. In the beginning I did run scenarios in my mind but then I realized that I was dictating the BG's actions in my mind and that is not realistic as there are too many ways for him to react to me. I had to simplify things. I am single and no family. I am an OLD fart and raised on old values. Women and children are never struck and you protect them. Would I get involved in someone else's problem? If it was a bodily harm or life threat I would like to think so and have done in the past. Once just my showing up stopped the situation. In another I had to do a body check that stopped him long enough that others restrained him. In my thinking I looked back at history.
    History has taught us the best laid plans are worthless once the action starts. Best you can do is take care of your health. Take care of your weapon and practice so it can do what you want it to during a need. It might be ( we hope ) that just the visible weapon will make the BG beat feet.
    My line in the sand is different for myself than it is protecting a woman or child. For me , run like heck and keep low. I hope I will have the mental strength to get in the way of a BG to protect someone else. I would be ok sitting in front of 12 if I could see the 1 healthy and alive with a future in the audience.
    Remember, Sands are always shifting.
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  8. #23
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    Agree! Well said!

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Remember, Sands are always shifting.
    Yes they are and your line in the sand can change numerous times throughout your life.

    At one time period in my life I "considered myself already dead." Since I did not have anything to lose, I would fight evil whenever I saw it, because I did not really care if I lived or died

    When I became a Dad, all of that changed.

    The very reason that I "considered myself already dead" while being the family protector at 13 years old (and for 13 years after that) was because their was no dad. This led to the understanding how important it is to the family and the kids to have a strong parental figure at home. That was the day that I switched from "the righteous fighter" to "the righteous dad." Both jobs are equally honorable but can be very different in actual application.

  10. #25
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    I hope everyone who reads this will take it to heart. I know I did.

  11. #26
    Member Array ElkSniper's Avatar
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    Different does NOT equal Wrong

    One thing I have noticed over the years is that some people think that two people doing things differently means that at least one of them is doing it wrong. This often manifests itself as "I do it different from you, so you are wrong".

    But different is not necessarily wrong.

    I may like a certain gun or caliber. You may another. That's ok.
    I may say I'd act one way in a given scenario, you may say you'd act another way. That's ok.

    Actually, I think there are a lot of people on this forum that realize this - I see a lot of 'well you came out ok, so you win' posts. I think that's great. I'm very glad to see more of those than the "I would do it differently so you are wrong" posts.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunslingergirl View Post
    Great comments, at least until I went cross-eyed over the huge paragraphs... ;)

    "Don't go stupid places, and do stupid things with stupid people."

    Gosh, but those are the places where life's best adventures occur. I wouldn't have any good stories to tell of all the stupid things I've done if I followed that advice. :) :)
    For thirteen years I lived outside of the "3 stupid rule." In those thirteen years I was involved in four life threatening confrontations.

    I admit to doing a lot of crazy things and having a lot of fun, but the price was very high.

    I now have twenty five years of generally living within the "3 stupid rule" and have not had one life threatening confrontation. If we are looking at reducing our risks of being killed or having to kill somebody in self defense, there is no better way than living within the "3 stupid rule."

  13. #28
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    Mr. Phillips, you're correct that it is ridiculous to believe that someone from situation A can tell a person in situation B how to act, particularly if they've never been in that situation. But that doesn't address my comments on location. I won't pretend to tell you how you should, or should not, react to any situation. I do at times try to ensure that people are aware of the risks associated with a decision, even if I've made the same decision myself... but I am not going to tell someone that they should do anything, that is their choice to make.

    But location has less to do with the decision than what the person believes. I'm not going to correct rude behavior no matter where I am. Unless I'm on duty I'm not going to worry about you speeding, cutting me off in traffic, littering, jay walking, or any number of things. But if you cross the line that I've drawn I will take appropriate action. That is true whether I'm in Miami, FL or Miami, OK. We could be in a pasture 10 miles from the nearest building or on a street with 10,000 people within a block of us, my decision whether or not to take action is based upon what you have done, not where we are.

    Maybe it is just me. In fact, there's probably a good chance it is just me. But I have a particular view of the world and its inhabitants and I've yet to find anything to make me change that view- even after seeing the best and the worst that humanity has to offer.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
    - Lt. Col. Oliver North

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