Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit - Page 10

Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit

This is a discussion on Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Private property is one question; having a business license to do business with the public on that property changes the situation. for example, as a ...

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Thread: Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit

  1. #136
    Member Array geohans's Avatar
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    Private property is one question; having a business license to do business with the public on that property changes the situation.

    for example, as a private property owner you are not required to have handicap ramps at the family home. No handicap parking. Different standards for everything from electrical to water and fire prevention. All that changes the moment you "open for business."

    come on, private property guys! Are there or are there not different standards for your private home, versus your privately owned mom and pop hardware store?

    A lawsuit may or may not be successful. It may be necessary that a statute be developed, holding business owners responsible for a higher level of security for patrons if the owner chooses to disarm them. No reasonable person would insist on a 100 percent guarantee of safety; but the situation in Aurora is EXACTLY the kind of situation where a property owner disarmed his customers, without providing proper security. Cinemark should be toast, if ANYONE who was there can show they have a CCW and chose not to carry because of Cinemark's policy.

    IMO the property/business owner takes on a moral responsibility when he disarms his customers. This may or may not translate into a civil or legal responsibility AT THIS TIME. But hopefully it will soon.
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  2. #137
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geohans View Post
    Private property is one question; having a business license to do business with the public on that property changes the situation.

    for example, as a private property owner you are not required to have handicap ramps at the family home. No handicap parking. Different standards for everything from electrical to water and fire prevention. All that changes the moment you "open for business."

    come on, private property guys! Are there or are there not different standards for your private home, versus your privately owned mom and pop hardware store?

    A lawsuit may or may not be successful. It may be necessary that a statute be developed, holding business owners responsible for a higher level of security for patrons if the owner chooses to disarm them. No reasonable person would insist on a 100 percent guarantee of safety; but the situation in Aurora is EXACTLY the kind of situation where a property owner disarmed his customers, without providing proper security. Cinemark should be toast, if ANYONE who was there can show they have a CCW and chose not to carry because of Cinemark's policy.

    IMO the property/business owner takes on a moral responsibility when he disarms his customers. This may or may not translate into a civil or legal responsibility AT THIS TIME. But hopefully it will soon.
    Name one person that Cinemark went up to and disarmed them......And please let me know how much security Cinemark should have had to have prevented what almost everyone considers was an unforseen and well planned attack. Tell me how many guard, what weapons they should have had, what kind of screenings were needed (metal detectors). You tell me what you think should have been in place with the advantage of hindsight.

  3. #138
    Distinguished Member Array VBVAGUY's Avatar
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    Sorry but I did not read through 10 pages of remarks that everyone has submitted. However I have always thought of this subject, one of the credit unions that I have had my deposit in for many years has a 'No Firearms' sign on the door, so naturally I have to disarm myself before entering. There are no security guards there. I have always wondered if I were unarmed and the place gets robbed and people get injured during the robbery by the BG, can the credit union be held responsible for our safety ?? I mean YES I can bank somewhere else, but in a way I am paying them and I would *think* that by being a place with high value items that security not just for the bank but also for the patrons would be high on the list. Even a armed security guard would be better than nothing at all which is what they have now. I am curious of anyone takes this offer and if so the outcome of it. God Bless

  4. #139
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VBVAGUY View Post
    Sorry but I did not read through 10 pages of remarks that everyone has submitted. However I have always thought of this subject, one of the credit unions that I have had my deposit in for many years has a 'No Firearms' sign on the door, so naturally I have to disarm myself before entering. There are no security guards there. I have always wondered if I were unarmed and the place gets robbed and people get injured during the robbery by the BG, can the credit union be held responsible for our safety ?? I mean YES I can bank somewhere else, but in a way I am paying them and I would *think* that by being a place with high value items that security not just for the bank but also for the patrons would be high on the list. Even a armed security guard would be better than nothing at all which is what they have now. I am curious of anyone takes this offer and if so the outcome of it. God Bless
    Funny you should say that. I was at a credit union today with my son and while waiting for a customer service rep I was watching the security guard. Was sitting on a stool by the door. No radio. Medium size lobby. about 8 tellers and a waiting area and 3 glass enclosed offices. Now I said to my self:"self,if I was a BG and wanted to rob this bank and did not mind killing people (which BTW most robbers do not, they would rather get away as fast as possible so statisticaly you are better off standing in line and letting the BG take the money but I digress) the security guard would be toast as I walked in and since I have a perfect view of the lobby so if anyone tried to draw they would be toast also. BTW: standing behind me would be a receptionist so if you missed she would be toast also. Also anyone in the parking lot since the windows are not bullet proof.

    In short, a lawyer will say that since you were diarmed you did not have the oppurtunity to defend yourself. I say bull to that. No one knows what will/can happen. And as far as the original question....a well planned robbery and the security guard IMO would be ineffective.

  5. #140
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    Mother of Aurora shooting victim plans suit against theater

    Mother of Aurora shooting victim plans suit against theater | 9news.com

    this will be the second one
    Her case won't go anywhere. It is not uncommon for theaters to have zero "security" personel. In our Cinemark I have never seen anyone doing security, unless you want to count the kid taking tickets when you go in. Movie theaters aren't inherently dangerous places with folks commonly doing dangerous things. Everyone is there to have a good time. Most businesses don't have security in the sense of being there to protect the customers, it is most often used to protect the store from theft.

    Bars, night clubs or large venue settings will often have security due to the nature of the business and the tempers that can flair when folks are either drinking or you have thousands and thousands of people in one area.

    The lady can sue for anything, whether she will win any lawsuit is a longshot. More than likely the company or insurance will settle with her. If she was honest, she would sue the shooter, but hey, how much money can be gotten out of a college dropout who is going to spend the rest of his life behind bars. I wonder how many times her daughter went to this theater? If the daughter had a habit of going to the theater, especially on "big event" nights and never had any security concerns herself, why would the theater need to take any extraordinary measures this one night?
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #141
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VBVAGUY View Post
    Sorry but I did not read through 10 pages of remarks that everyone has submitted. However I have always thought of this subject, one of the credit unions that I have had my deposit in for many years has a 'No Firearms' sign on the door, so naturally I have to disarm myself before entering. There are no security guards there. I have always wondered if I were unarmed and the place gets robbed and people get injured during the robbery by the BG, can the credit union be held responsible for our safety ?? I mean YES I can bank somewhere else, but in a way I am paying them and I would *think* that by being a place with high value items that security not just for the bank but also for the patrons would be high on the list. Even a armed security guard would be better than nothing at all which is what they have now. I am curious of anyone takes this offer and if so the outcome of it. God Bless
    With the same thinking, why couldn't you sue your city or county if you were ever a victim of a crime? They didn't provide enough security to the law abiding citizens to protect them from any harm. It all boils down to reasonableness. It isn't reasonable for a city to have a cop on every street corner. It isn't reasonable for every business to hire armed security personel for every minute they are open.

    Let me turn the tables on you a sec. If you are concerned about being shot while at your credit union, why don't you wear body armor to ensure your safety? Because it isn't reasonable for you to do so.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  7. #142
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Movie theaters aren't inherently dangerous places with folks commonly doing dangerous things. Everyone is there to have a good time. Most businesses don't have security in the sense of being there to protect the customers
    No one goes to Disney land and expects a nut case to shoot up the place and doesn’t allow guns either BUT they have security. I went to a FREE concert the other day and there was no beer allowed on the property but they had security… I wonder why? Went to the aquarium a while back and LOOK there was a security guard …. I wonder why? Went to the state fair last year and you can carry in there (gov property and Texas law) and what did I see…. Security!!
    If the movie theater doesn’t want to pay for security then allow people that can carry legal to do so. I don’t think that is too much to ask. After all according to some of you the theater is not responsible if someone gets shot so why do they ban it if they can’t be sued ??

  8. #143
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    If the movie theater doesn’t want to pay for security then allow people that can carry legal to do so. I don’t think that is too much to ask. After all according to some of you the theater is not responsible if someone gets shoot so why do they ban it if they can’t be sued ??
    Are you suggesting every store or every public place provide private security? So what if they have security and someone still gets shot or killed? Was it not good enough security, or not enough security, folks would still want to sue.

    I boils down to what the theater owner wants to do. It is afterall their property. Maybe they feel the majority of people feel safer if no guns are in the theater. Afterall, less than 1% of people nationwide even have permits. Would you rather offend 1% or 99% of your target customer base? If you want a movie theater that allows concealed carry, open one, or wait till it comes to Redbox and watch it at home with your gun in hand, your property, you can do as you wish. Our Cinemark doesn't prohibit concealed carry. Well at least it didn't last time I went which was before Aurora.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #144
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    No one goes to Disney land and expects a nut case to shoot up the place and doesn’t allow guns either BUT they have security. I went to a FREE concert the other day and there was no beer allowed on the property but they had security… I wonder why? Went to the aquarium a while back and LOOK there was a security guard …. I wonder why? Went to the state fair last year and you can carry in there (gov property and Texas law) and what did I see…. Security!!
    If the movie theater doesn’t want to pay for security then allow people that can carry legal to do so. I don’t think that is too much to ask. After all according to some of you the theater is not responsible if someone gets shot so why do they ban it if they can’t be sued ??
    As I asked earlier in a post. You tell me what level of security would be acceptable for you in a movie theater where you feel that a lawsuit would not be warranted. Use Aurora as an example. How many guard. How many weapons. Do they need metal detectors? You tell us.

  10. #145
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    As I asked earlier in a post. You tell me what level of security would be acceptable for you in a movie theater where you feel that a lawsuit would not be warranted. Use Aurora as an example. How many guard. How many weapons. Do they need metal detectors? You tell us.
    Control of the fire exit doors so outside influences can't enter from them and security cameras on the back side of the building so you can see what is happening from a central stand point. No one said it has to be fort Knox for to do nothing when you have big crowds and a violent movie is mindless.

    Say they do nothing and a fight breaks out with some gang members or hoods who handles that; the cops? The crowds made it difficult from them to get in to start with and I for one don’t go to a movie to run security when something does happen

    They don’t / didn’t provide security because they want to maximize their profits. Cash losses are insured and they are not responsible for unforeseen damages to the movie goer according to some of you

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    What right are they being denied sir? Nobody forced them to go there. It was a choice. If you CHOOSE something then nothing is denied. If a person goes to a party at someones house and the owner has a no gun policy and the guy does not take his gun and he gets shot by a burgular should he be able to sue the homeowner because he was denied having his weapon?
    SAFETY was denied and/or not provided. I can CHOOSE to go to Applebee's. IF Applebee's serves me contaminated food and I die, my family will be rich. If a private company serves the public they are in the business of doing it safely. And let's say I CHOOSE to go to a theater to see a movie, and said theater catches on fire-and I can't get out because of a faulty emergency exit, I guess my death is my fault too, because I CHOSE to see a movie.
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  12. #147
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Are you suggesting every store or every public place provide private security? So what if they have security and someone still gets shot or killed? Was it not good enough security, or not enough security, folks would still want to sue.

    I boils down to what the theater owner wants to do. It is afterall their property. [B]Maybe they feel the majority of people feel safer if no guns are in the theater[/B].( Assumption) (1) Afterall, less than 1% of people nationwide even have permits.(2) Would you rather offend 1% or 99% of your target customer base? If you want a movie theater that allows concealed carry, open one, or wait till it comes to Redbox and watch it at home with your gun in hand, your property, you can do as you wish. Our Cinemark doesn't prohibit concealed carry. Well at least it didn't last time I went which was before Aurora.
    (1) if this is the case then why ban them from carrying?

    (2) If there were no signs up at all would the general public know the difference? After all the BG don't care about signs

  13. #148
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8th ID View Post
    SAFETY was denied and/or not provided. I can CHOOSE to go to Applebee's. IF Applebee's serves me contaminated food and I die, my family will be rich. If a private company serves the public they are in the business of doing it safely. And let's say I CHOOSE to go to a theater to see a movie, and said theater catches on fire-and I can't get out because of a faulty emergency exit, I guess my death is my fault too, because I CHOSE to see a movie.
    That is ridiculus and has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Part of the arguement is that folks were denied their rights. No rights were denied. Period.
    If the doors were locked during a fire that is negligence.
    Knowing you have to go unarmed somewhere is not negligence. But go ahead and join the rest of sue happy America. And pleas someone try to explaiin to me how a private company denied someone their rightss

  14. #149
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8th ID View Post
    SAFETY was denied and/or not provided. I can CHOOSE to go to Applebee's. IF Applebee's serves me contaminated food and I die, my family will be rich. If a private company serves the public they are in the business of doing it safely. And let's say I CHOOSE to go to a theater to see a movie, and said theater catches on fire-and I can't get out because of a faulty emergency exit, I guess my death is my fault too, because I CHOSE to see a movie.
    Both food poisoning and faulty fire equipment would be negligence on the part of the restaurant and theater.

    Nothing the movie theater did caused the deaths and injuries. It was a single person who caused the damages.

    One more for you all. Say a theater allowed for concealed carry during the movie. Then some numb nut with his CHL goes to the theater and his gun falls out of the holster or pocket, whatever, and discharges and kills or injures someone. Is the theater liable for that because they allowed guns on their premisis, or is the idiot that dropped the gun liable?
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  15. #150
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Both food poisoning and faulty fire equipment would be negligence on the part of the restaurant and theater.

    Nothing the movie theater did caused the deaths and injuries. It was a single person who caused the damages.

    One more for you all. Say a theater allowed for concealed carry during the movie. Then some numb nut with his CHL goes to the theater and his gun falls out of the holster or pocket, whatever, and discharges and kills or injures someone. Is the theater liable for that because they allowed guns on their premisis, or is the idiot that dropped the gun liable?
    Texas law says they are responsible for the damage and death from their own gun causes
    But according the hot dogs are more of a danger to the theater then guns from their stand point

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