Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit

This is a discussion on Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; A fire door is there to let people out in case of a fire. What does that have to do with an alarm system designed ...

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Thread: Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit

  1. #166
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    A fire door is there to let people out in case of a fire. What does that have to do with an alarm system designed to alert police of a break in while the business is closed?
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  3. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    so do you think they have a security system for when they lock up at night so if someone enters the building after they close up? but don't have one when they are open incase someone opens a fire door or leaves it ajared.
    I would think so, yes...

  4. #168
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Godspeed to Mr. Piazza and to the victim(s) with right on their side.
    I can respect a man that takes a stand and puts his money behind it.
    We all know the case will be lost but it would be great to see it move forward.

  5. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I was at a credit union today with my son and while waiting for a customer service rep I was watching the security guard. Was sitting on a stool by the door. No radio. Medium size lobby. about 8 tellers and a waiting area and 3 glass enclosed offices. Now I said to my self:"self,if I was a BG and wanted to rob this bank and did not mind killing people (which BTW most robbers do not, they would rather get away as fast as possible so statisticaly you are better off standing in line and letting the BG take the money but I digress) the security guard would be toast as I walked in and since I have a perfect view of the lobby so if anyone tried to draw they would be toast also. BTW: standing behind me would be a receptionist so if you missed she would be toast also. Also anyone in the parking lot since the windows are not bullet proof....
    What, is your CU giving out toasters? Adequate security would check the open fire door and possibly challenge.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  6. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    A fire door is there to let people out in case of a fire. What does that have to do with an alarm system designed to alert police of a break in while the business is closed?
    I think that barstoolguru proved that alarmed fire doors are adequate security.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  7. #171
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    What, is your CU giving out toasters? Adequate security would check the open fire door and possibly challenge.
    What are you talking about? Where did I mention fire doors? Re read the post. Nice try at the joke about toasters though.

  8. #172
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    I think that barstoolguru proved that alarmed fire doors are adequate security.
    Adequate security for what? Again, fire doors are to let people out. That is their intended purpose. That is the security they provide, to allow people to safely exit the building in case of a fire and not be bunched up at a locked door. Are they required to have alarms that sound when opened? I don't know, maybe someone that knows for certain can inform us.

    But, even if they are required to sound an alarm when opened, that alarm isn't there to alert people of entry into the building it would be there to tell people to exit the building. So, say the door sounded an alarm when he went out, what would have kept the shooter from shooting each person as they scrambled out of the fire exit like fish in a barrel. Folks would think the building was on fire, exit in a panic and be shot at the doorway, and be stacked up like cord wood.

    Nothing "proved" in my mind that it would have given any more security with the given situation.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #173
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    I think that barstoolguru proved that alarmed fire doors are adequate security.
    NO; I do believe you are mistaken.. What I said is that security is in layers and when you take someone’s money for a service you should provide security. After all you are showing a violent movie that can draw violent people. When you go to a concert there is security... why? When you go to Disney land; there is security... why? But when 5000 thousand people see a movie everyone feels like there is no need for security.... Why?
    So what is the breaking point….. When is security needed? They restrict guns to make the theater safer but guess what ………. fail

  10. #174
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    NO; I do believe you are mistaken.. What I said is that security is in layers and when you take someone’s money for a service you should provide security. After all you are showing a violent movie that can draw violent people. When you go to a concert there is security... why? When you go to Disney land; there is security... why? But when 5000 thousand people see a movie everyone feels like there is no need for security.... Why?
    So what is the breaking point….. When is security needed? They restrict guns to make the theater safer but guess what ………. fail
    That is a pretty big number 5000 thousand! I assume you mean 5000 which is in correct anyway. And I asked before since you love to use Wal Mart as an example of proper security...I would assume that you would agree that someone that walked in the front door of Wal Mart and blew away 20 or so people is the only one responsible, not WalMart

  11. #175
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    That is a pretty big number 5000 thousand! I assume you mean 5000 which is in correct anyway. And I asked before since you love to use Wal Mart as an example of proper security...I would assume that you would agree that someone that walked in the front door of Wal Mart and blew away 20 or so people is the only one responsible, not WalMart
    NO; if they walk through the front door I don't see Wal-Mart responsible but if they came in through a fire door that was supposed to be secure then I say yes because the whole reason to have the doors lock from the inside is security

    That is a pretty big number 5000 thousand! I assume you mean 5000 which is in correct anyway. And I asked before since you love to use Wal Mart as an example of proper security...I would assume that you would agree that someone that walked in the front door of Wal Mart and blew away 20 or so people is the only one responsible, not WalMart
    By the way you did a fair job of side stepping the question so I will ask it again... what is the magic number for someone to add security to a building or crowd?

  12. #176
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    NO; if they walk through the front door I don't see Wal-Mart responsible but if they came in through a fire door that was supposed to be secure then I say yes because the whole reason to have the doors lock from the inside is security
    I need to get out of this thread LOL......So, an establishment is NOT responsible for having a shooter come in the front door which has no security but IS responsible if the shooter breaches some security...doublefacepalm.jpg

  13. #177
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I need to get out of this thread LOL......So, an establishment is NOT responsible for having a shooter come in the front door which has no security but IS responsible if the shooter breaches some security...doublefacepalm.jpg
    And still no reasonable answer to the question…. Thanks for posting

  14. #178
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I need to get out of this thread LOL......So, an establishment is NOT responsible for having a shooter come in the front door which has no security but IS responsible if the shooter breaches some security...doublefacepalm.jpg
    Had the shooter used the front door, the theater would be responsible in his mind. Since they used the back door AFTER coming in the front door they are responsible for not securing the fire door from the inside but not for not securing the front door from the outside. Makes perfect sense to me, why can't you understand that.

    BTW, there is no magic number for when X level of security is required. Reasonable measures, that is the key.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  15. #179
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    Guys, shut up already.
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  16. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Adequate security for what? Again, fire doors are to let people out. That is their intended purpose. That is the security they provide, to allow people to safely exit the building in case of a fire and not be bunched up at a locked door. Are they required to have alarms that sound when opened? I don't know, maybe someone that knows for certain can inform us.

    But, even if they are required to sound an alarm when opened, that alarm isn't there to alert people of entry into the building it would be there to tell people to exit the building. So, say the door sounded an alarm when he went out, what would have kept the shooter from shooting each person as they scrambled out of the fire exit like fish in a barrel. Folks would think the building was on fire, exit in a panic and be shot at the doorway, and be stacked up like cord wood.

    Nothing "proved" in my mind that it would have given any more security with the given situation.
    Adequate security for ingress via the fire door sounding an alarm.
    I think fewer than 71 would have been shot exiting one fire door.
    Requirement isn't the point that I'm making. It's just that an alarmed fire door prevents sneaking in. WM doesn't ban carrying weapons and has alarmed fire doors. The theater bans and doesn't have alarmed fire doors and probably doesn't provide adequate security for a bona fide "gun-free" zone.
    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    NO; I do believe you are mistaken.. What I said is that security is in layers and when you take someone’s money for a service you should provide security. After all you are showing a violent movie that can draw violent people. When you go to a concert there is security... why? When you go to Disney land; there is security... why? But when 5000 thousand people see a movie everyone feels like there is no need for security.... Why?
    So what is the breaking point….. When is security needed? They restrict guns to make the theater safer but guess what ………. fail
    I'm not saying adequate total security but adequate for fire door security, and "adequate" doesn't mean failsafe.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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