Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit

This is a discussion on Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by barstoolguru Who knows the wreck would have be an accident, good chance it could have been on propose...lol so now the theater ...

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Thread: Ignatious Piazza offers to fund CCW denial Cinemark lawsuit

  1. #211
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    Who knows the wreck would have be an accident, good chance it could have been on propose...lol

    so now the theater has an obligation in case of fire to give you an out, they have an obligation to make sure your food is safe but they have no obligation to make sure you are safe from acts of violence even though there is a history of violence when movies like this are played or is it that unless they are FORCED into like the fire code and restaurant codes do... they don't want to spend the money so they have bigger profits... 71 people are injured or dead.... O'well just another day in the business world... look ticket sales are dropping off we better add some security so people feel safe once again until this blows over and then we will pull them

    And your right security will not stop someone from being violent but what it does deters it/or minimalizes the damage done because of no resistance
    Well sir, since we at least have our sense of humors I just want to know this:was the Cinema in compliance with all codes? If not then there is a reason for a lawsuit. If they were in compliance then there should not be a lawsuit. Either way, you, nor anyone can definitely say how many people would have been killed depending on which way he entered. That is speculation. And I think you should be able to carry any where you like but if it is privately owned (even by a corporation) then it is up to them. No rights re denied, no discrimination....just like me getting into your car without a seatbelt....there is a risk.

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  3. #212
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    barstool,

    do you have an answer to whether signs in CO carry weight of law? If the answer to that is no, then your whole argument is invalid to begin with.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  4. #213
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Well sir, since we at least have our sense of humors I just want to know this:was the Cinema in compliance with all codes? If not then there is a reason for a lawsuit. If they were in compliance then there should not be a lawsuit. Either way, you, nor anyone can definitely say how many people would have been killed depending on which way he entered. That is speculation. And I think you should be able to carry any where you like but if it is privately owned (even by a corporation) then it is up to them. No rights re denied, no discrimination....just like me getting into your car without a seatbelt....there is a risk.

    what code says that you need security in Disney land ? What code says you need security in a night club or at a waterpark? you keep saying there is a risk for going someplace or doing something and I say yes but if that something is skydiving, white water rafting or motocross but when you enter a secure building and access is controlled and self-protection is restricted they take on the role of security. There are no risks or shouldn't be to do something as simple as watch a movie. If there were fights or gang activity and you told people they would have to enter at their own risk do you think they would come and spend their money?

    The mall right next door as a history of gang activity and violence (earlier posts), people stopped coming because they didn’t feel safe and the movie theater is in the same lot as the mall. You see how fast the mall management distanced them self’s from the theater because they knew that trouble was coming. Security means less profits and movie theater are big money makers, low overhead and expensive snacks

  5. #214
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    and you right security or even have a firearm won't help in every situation. sometimes you just have to take chances


  6. #215
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    Originally Posted by farronwolf
    Yes criminals do bad things. You can not stop them, and can never take enough measures to stop them when someplace is open to the public.
    Originally Posted by Pistology
    You can't cite any mass shootings in the airport secure zone. Attempts at smuggling destruction to souls and machines are thwarted - with enough security. But no mass shootings.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    What is your point? You want the same level of security they have at airports to be in theaters?
    If this happened in the lobby or the guy carried the gun in through the front door because they had armed guards at all the fire exits folks would be screaming there was not enough security at the front doors and there should have been metal detectors is they banned carry. The fact is everybody's life is not dictated by the all mighty gun. No one is being discriminated by owning a gun like someone said. We all have choices. You feel like you need to be armed 100 percent of the time then that is cool. Everybody is different. If your solution to the the tragedy in Aurora is to have airport security at every place that bans carry then that is unreasonable. Unless of course you want to absorb the cost of the added security and the long wait lines.
    No. The point is that one can take measures to stop criminals. It's possible; but, as you indicate, for a theater and the vast majority of businesses, onerous or prohibitive, no pun intended. Until one can ensure security, one should not enforce a ban on carrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    And I ask you this: If the theater allowed guns and there was an AD or ND...would the Cinema be liable at all? You darn well know that there would be a lawsuit brought against them..
    Remember, suntzu, you are responsible for every bullet. Are you sure you're on board with 2A - the right to keep and bear? Seriously.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  7. #216
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    No. The point is that one can take measures to stop criminals. It's possible; but, as you indicate, for a theater and the vast majority of businesses, onerous or prohibitive, no pun intended. Until one can ensure security, one should not enforce a ban on carrying.
    I have yet to receive an answer to whether or not the theater's no gun policy is actually enforceable? If the no gun signs don't carry the weight of law, then there was nothing prohibited, only suggested.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Hmm. You might actually watch Dr. Suzanna Gratia Hupps video. The Luby's Cafeteria was before Texas had CHL laws. Carrying anywhere was prohibited. So the whole state was a gun free zone when this shooting happened. If it isn't an argument for carrying as a cure for the psycho killer, what is your point exactly? You argue that they shouldn't ban carrying?
    2A isn't to cure the universe of psycho killers. It is a protection of a natural right. TX was in violation. Surely, you see the irony in the term, "gun-free". It doesn't work.
    Yes, I'm arguing that governments should not violate 2A. I'm also arguing that businesses should provide adequate security like all fire exits be alarmed and that there are sufficient armed guards to investigate alarms, among other security measures that it's not my job to analyze and execute, before banning carrying.
    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    You can wish all you want, but the fact remains that the property owner is in control of what they allow on their property. If you don't like their rules, don't go to their property, go to property which you own and set the rules for. They are basing their decisions on what they feel is best for their business, not whether someone dislikes their gun policy.
    I agree except that banning carrying is empirically irrational and impugns the legal right to keep and bear arms by honest citizens.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  9. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I have yet to receive an answer to whether or not the theater's no gun policy is actually enforceable? If the no gun signs don't carry the weight of law, then there was nothing prohibited, only suggested.
    216 posts, and we don't know if the gun signs carry the force of law? No wonder we're confused. From Handgunlaw.us:
    Places Off-Limits Even With A Permit/License
    18-12-214. Authority Granted By Permit - Carrying Restrictions.
    (1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section....
    (5) nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.
    What are the penalties for violating the existing rights of a private business entity in this case?
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  10. #219
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    You want armed guards to investigate fire alarms on fire exits? Wouldn't the public be better served if the guards were armed with fire extinquishers when a fire alarms sounds?

    What would the cost of hiring armed guards be at every business that had fire exits be? How many guards would be required per exit. If a business has a single exit they would have to pay for an armed guard every hour they are open to check that exit. Most states required "guards" to be licensed by the state if they are providing security, and carrying a gun. In Texas they must also work for a licensed security company, they can't just work for employer X. The company has to hire the guards through the security company, thereby increasing the cost way over and above the simple hourly rate. It would be extremely costly for every business to do this. Would you be willing to pay double for the price of a movie ticket and popcorn to see your movie? I doubt it.

    As has been stated previously. A private entity can not violate your 2A rights. Their property rights supercede your 2A rights unless specifically stated by state law. In Texas other than some prohibited places, state, county or local government entities are prohibited from posting 30.06 signage by statute. However, private property can prohibit it all they want. But it is a state by state issue, not related to the US constitution or 2A.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #220
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    According to Handgunlaw.us, they do not carry the weight of law. Did you notice the big NO at the top of the section?
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  12. #221
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    There's also this, and it may be due for clarification by a civil suit like Mr. Piazza's:
    “Handgunlaw.us highly recommends that you not enter a place that is posted "No Firearms" no matter what the state laws read/mean on signage. We recommend you print out the No Guns = No Money Cards and give one to the owner of the establishment that has the signage." As responsible gun owners and upholders of the 2nd Amendment we should also honor the rights of property owners to control their own property even if we disagree with them.”
    “No Firearm” signs in Colorado have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.
    If the signs have no force, then I'm happy that the government is not enforcing a ban. Of course, the private business entity retains its property rights. None of this convinces me that Cinemark or any other business should ban carrying, and I know where Mr. Piazza stands. That's what this thread is about.

    However, 71 people were shot indicating that the theater operated under gross underestimation of risk of mass shooting.

    As Our political leaders ask us to search our hearts, we need to find a better solution than businesses have a right to ban carrying. Better security or don't ban. What's the problem?
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  13. #222
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    It would be extremely costly for every business to do this. Would you be willing to pay double for the price of a movie ticket and popcorn to see your movie? I doubt it.
    How much profit is there when you sell a soda that cost 7 cents for $4.00-7.00 or 5 cents worth of corn for $6.00-8.50? A theater runs on a skeleton crew and services thousands on a good night. I have a friend that remodels movie theaters and they work at night so the theater can stay open because they will lose too much money closing down

    You want armed guards to investigate fire alarms on fire exits? Wouldn't the public be better served if the guards were armed with fire extinquishers when a fire alarms sounds?
    This was covered already so I will recap it.... there is a thing out called security cameras that can monitor all exits as well as the back of the building. You can't stop crime but you can at least deter it especially when you have such a high concentration of people in one area

  14. #223
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    It appears 2 law suits have already been filed. It will be interesting to see how they pan out. Either way one side of this enthusiastic debate on this thread will be disappointed.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

  15. #224
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    barstool,

    You don't own a business do you, or never have a suspect. Nothing wrong with that, but making a buck isn't as easy as some think it is.

    Just for kicks and giggles, I will throw some figures at you. Our local Cinemark theater pays 146,000 per year in property taxes. The property is valued at 6 million dollars, it didn't get built for free. Theaters pay a percentage of ticket sales back to the studio, some as much as 70 or 80 percent. Add labor costs, utilities, insurance, and on and on. It takes a lot of money to build and run a theater. You might check out this link to see why popcorn and cokes cost so much.

    How a movie theater makes a buck - Mar. 9, 2002

    Just because you think they are making a bundle doesn't mean they do. Adding another person to monitor security cameras cost more money. Do you think the guy monitoring the cameras would have stopped the shooting spree? Not hardly, it would have simply recorded the events as they played out. Again, who would have thought a lunatic would go and shoot up a theater, about as many people as thought folks would hi jack planes and fly them into buildings on the east coast.

    To recap why I don't think that Mr. Piazza will be successful. First because the 2A is put in place to protect the people from the government, not private parties. Second because the theater wasn't negligent, and didn't do anything that is not done across the entire country at theaters. They took reasonable measures.

    Do I like gun free zones. No. However as a property and business owner I believe private parties have every right to post them on their property. When folks start wanting to dictate what someone can do with their own property because they feel they are limiting your rights, gives me reason to question whether folks respect the rights of others as much as they do their own.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  16. #225
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    When you say 'the bushiness has the right to ban guns', you are placing the theater higher than the people who were shot, you are justifying the massacre, you are saying it's ok that people died so long as the theater's right to ban guns was protected.

    No sir, a private business is not grater than the person. The person is higher than the business.

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