Aresarmor: Selling gun "kits" with no serial number, no FFL is required. Legal?

Aresarmor: Selling gun "kits" with no serial number, no FFL is required. Legal?

This is a discussion on Aresarmor: Selling gun "kits" with no serial number, no FFL is required. Legal? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I didn't find any posts on this when I did a search. My question is in regard to companies that sell parts that you assemble ...

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Thread: Aresarmor: Selling gun "kits" with no serial number, no FFL is required. Legal?

  1. #1
    Member Array romansten9's Avatar
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    Aresarmor: Selling gun "kits" with no serial number, no FFL is required. Legal?

    I didn't find any posts on this when I did a search.

    My question is in regard to companies that sell parts that you assemble yourself, and the idea that a firearm assembled for your own personal use (not to be sold) is allowed to not have a serial number and buying parts for this weapon doesn't required an FFL. (I know that an FFL is normally required for buying certain parts of a firearm) They appear to be selling an "80% kit" plus the rest of the parts needed to complete it, all without a serial number or FFL.

    Here is one company that claims to sell "kits" with no FFL required:
    Ares Armor Tactical Gear Their magazine ads say more about not having a serial number, and their ads have words like: "unserialized" "unregistered" "unstoppable"

    They also have a link to the ATF (scroll down on homepage) describing how it appears to be legal to assemble complete firearms without an FFL (for personal use)

    One quote from that ATF webpage: "Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

    "Suggest" a serial number - but not required?

    Anyone heard of this? Any thoughts?
    Last edited by romansten9; August 23rd, 2012 at 05:05 AM. Reason: typo


  2. #2
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    Well, the way it always was would be that any receiver that is less only 80% complete is not considered to be a firearm and can basically be sold the same as a hunk of metal.

    And being legally deemed as just a hunk of metal it could be shipped directly to you without having to go through an FFL

    You would then need to complete all of the remaining machine work/drilling operations etc. entirely by yourself.

    In orther words you cannot send it or take it anywhere to have the machine work completed. You cannot even have your Uncle Jake help you out...etc.

    And then you may keep that firearm for your own personal use. You cannot sell it. You cannot trade it. You cannot loan it out.

    You basically are limited to shooting it yourself. Period.

    And if I personally were to ever complete a 1911 from an 80% frame - and it had no serial # - I sure wouldn't carry it for self defense.

    If in the future you ever wanted to sell it or trade it or will it to a relative etc etc...you would have to contact the ATF and it would need to be given a serial number.

    You should also be aware of the fact that if you are a person that cannot legally own a firearm by the normal gun shop means of acquiring a firearm (Example: You were a convicted felon not allowed to possess a firearm) then you would still be in serious deep Federal Doo Doo if you completed an 80% one and were then found to be in possession of it.
    Which would get you automatic time in the Fed Pokey as soon as you completed your home project and your "hunk of metal receiver" became a complete firearm receiver.
    Because you would then be "in possession" of a firearm that you could not legally possess.

    Also please be aware of the fact that I am not a lawyer and all of the information (above) may not be correct or applicable to the way the law reads today.

    You need to contact the company selling them or the ATF and get updated as to what the exact laws presently are.

    If any of the above information is incorrect then I absolve myself from any responsibility for providing it because you need to research it all for yourself before you make a purchase.

  3. #3
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    I'd scroll down on this page Ares Armor Tactical Gearand read the company disclaimer and the applicable Federal laws provided in the links on that page.

    If you cannot otherwise legally own or possess a firearm then you shouldn't even consider even thinking about making your own.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Richard58's Avatar
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    Kinda like all those Mac 10 flats you used to see years ago at gun shows, wonder how many ever got built that could actually shoot?
    The police are not there to protect you from crime, they are there to arrest the guy after the crime has been committed, assuming they find him. It is your responsibility to protect yourself and your family.

  5. #5
    Member Array romansten9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I'd scroll down on this page Ares Armor Tactical Gearand read the company disclaimer and the applicable Federal laws provided in the links on that page.

    If you cannot otherwise legally own or possess a firearm then you shouldn't even consider even thinking about making your own.
    Yes, I did read what was posted on the page that I posted the link to!

    My post didn't address anything about people that can't legally own firearms. I think we all know that that is a big "no-no" But its a good reminder, just in case anyone here might not know that.

  6. #6
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    They are legal to own and they are legal to build and lots of people do it.

    You cannot build one for the sole purpose of selling it. You must build it for yourself. To build a gun for the sole purpose of selling it requires a manufactures liscense and it must have a serial number.

    However there is no serial number required if you complete a build for yourself.

    With that being said, it is highly reccomended to put some sort of identifiying mark on it for two reasons. One, is if it gets lost or stolen you at least have a trackable number. The other reason that is very seldom discussed is for your own benefit if you happen to get involved with Law Enforcement in any way.

    Most cops are taught that it is illegal for someone to have a firearm without an indentifiable serial number on it. If they see a gun with no number, they are going to want to take it and throw you in jail. Right,wrong, that's the way it is.

    Out of 1000 cops, maybe one of them will know that a homebuilt does not require a serial number. The rest of them will put you in jail and let your lawyer sort it all out.

    Technically, you can sell a homebuilt at a later date if you choose to do so, and technically it doesnt have to have a number on it, but due to reasons stated above it, it may not be the smart thing to do. Yes, you will win in court, but how much will it have cost you? At least enough to buy several high end guns.

    Some people that make homebuilts use their initials and a birthdate or the date they got married or whatever pleases them. If a cop looks at the gun and see's any number on it, you'll be on your way.

    Thats the reality of it and yes, I have communicated this to lots of cops in my hometown, but yours may not be so educated. I've had the local Sheriff call me and ask about it, so trust me, most of them dont have a clue.

    Some kits are easy to finish, using nothing more than a dremel...others require a milling machine and a lathe and all the tools that go with them. You can actually use someone else to build for you as long as you are there, meaning that control of the parts never leave you, otherwise, they would need a manufacturers license to be legal. Most machine shops dont understand this and most of them will have no part of it for fear of the ATF but it is legal to do so as long as you stay with it.

    I have built some kits and I have helped others build kits,but I have the manufacturers paperwork to do so. As a matter of fact, one of the first jobs I did as a manufacturer was to build a suppressed .22 on a Form 1 for an ATF agent. He was a "field agent" and didnt know the laws any better than most cops, but we were legal and that was all he cared about.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  7. #7
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    I just went and checked the link.

    Just so anyone contemplating it may know, you can buy a receiver that is fully machined, ready to go and the whole kit for much cheaper than what they are showing.

    Even an 80% receiver is a major pain to complete if you don't have the skills and the tools to do so. Most 80%er's don't have the magazine well machined, and that takes some specific tools and lots of setup equipment on a milling machine. To hold the receiver, you must either purchase or build special blocks to properly hold it in the vise.

    I've built them from forgings and built all the required tooling, but I have been a machinist for over 30 years and to tell you the truth, the time required is not worth it unless you have nothing better to do. One can shop around and get a lower receiver for 70 bucks, or spend a couple of days building one. To see what is required, check out this link for a manual on each exact step as well as the measurements required.

    Ray-Vin Technical Pages

    The guide above is excellent and by far the best one on the net, it is what I used. If you cant follow instructions to the T and cant measure within a .001, I wouldn't even try it. If you think you can do it with a dremel tool, educate yourself and read the tutorial.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  8. #8
    Ex Member Array bmglock23's Avatar
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    A thousand bucks for an AR-15 clone in pieces? No thanks.

  9. #9
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    By "you" I was referring to the general Internet population and not "you" specifically. I probably could have worded that a bit better.

    Quote Originally Posted by romansten9 View Post
    Yes, I did read what was posted on the page that I posted the link to!

    My post didn't address anything about people that can't legally own firearms. I think we all know that that is a big "no-no" But its a good reminder, just in case anyone here might not know that.
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  10. #10
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    Building for yourself is legal, but semi-goofy for any other reason except the satisfaction of DOING it. You can't compete with a manufacturer on the basis of; cost, time, quality or tolerances. If you like an expensive, time-burning, frustrating challenge, then help yourself (don't ask me how I know).
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  11. #11
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    You can actually use someone else to build for you as long as you are there, meaning that control of the parts never leave you, otherwise, they would need a manufacturers license to be legal.

    I got my information from Roderus (sp?) and he was the person that told me that the legal buyer must complete all of the work themselves and could not have anyone else complete the 80% frame.

    So....That's good info HotGuns and not something that I was aware of.

    That is pretty much the same as when I did custom electro-plating for a while for a Co. that did not have a FFL that was back when I was first learning industrial hard chrome.

    If the customer could not do a complete disassembly he could bring the gun in and we would pop it apart while he waited and send him home with the stripped receiver.

    We would prep and plate all of the parts except for the receiver and then call the customer to inform him that his parts were done & then he would bring in the stripped receiver and we would do that while he waited.
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Even after you complete the AR receiver it still needs to be anodized.
    For what they want for their basic kit you can get a finished receiver and a rifle kit and save $100
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