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Some legal help please.

5K views 53 replies 36 participants last post by  RemMod597 
#1 ·
I was at 1st grade orientation with my son last week and something came up. The principal said that the school has a zero tolerance policy on guns. (<--par for the course these days) They said that even a small plastic toy would be in violation of their policy and the child would be expelled.

Now to the meat of my post: THEN he said that the zero tolerance policy was not up to him or his superiors and it was, IN FACT, Ohio sate law. I didn't want to call BS right then but I would like some help from those of you more skilled with the keyboard. Can anyone actually find me the Ohio laws pertaining to the matter. Thanks in advance.


I'm hoping to deliver a printed copy of the actual law right to him as soon as possible....and then call BS.
 
#2 ·
A quick search and this is all I could find

Ohio Code > Title 33 > Chapter 3313 > § 3313.534 - Policy of zero tolerance for violent, disruptive or inappropriate behavior



No later than July 1, 1998, the board of education of each city, exempted village, and local school district shall adopt a policy of zero tolerance for violent, disruptive, or inappropriate behavior, including excessive truancy, and establish strategies to address such behavior that range from prevention to intervention.

No later than July 1, 1999, each of the big eight school districts, as defined in section 3314.02 of the Revised Code, shall establish under section 3313.533 of the Revised Code at least one alternative school to meet the educational needs of students with severe discipline problems, including, but not limited to, excessive truancy, excessive disruption in the classroom, and multiple suspensions or expulsions. Any other school district that attains after that date a significantly substandard graduation rate, as defined by the department of education shall also establish such an alternative school under that section.

Effective Date: 07-01-1998
 
#3 ·
it is a school policy and that is where you need to go; to the school. State/ federal laws apply to real guns but the school system can make up their own policies when it comes to the students
 
#4 ·
No kidding? I didn't know that.

Or maybe I would like to be armed with actual facts when I go in and talk to the guy.
 
#6 ·
Have you thought about asking him for the langauge of the law he is enforcing? If he says he doesn't have it, ask him for the code numbers so you can look it up. The risk of you bringing him something is that he can awlays say that you printed out the wrong code.
 
#7 ·
If you're not planning on sending your child into school with a toy gun then I would just drop it since you going into his school and making even the slightest issue over their policy is going to tag you as a "gun nut" in ther eyes.

Of course that is absolutely not true and you are not a nut at all but, that is the way they will perceive the event and they will probably make a CYA note of it on your kids permanent record.

And then who knows what some goofball school official is going to write in that permanent record that is going to follow your child all the way to college.

AKA: "Keep your eye on this one as the parents are obviously gun owners and the child may possibly bring a weapon into the classroom if ever provoked or bullied."

That is the way these people think and you're never going to change that. They are intelligent but, very warped and skewed in their logical thought processes.

If they can expel a girl from school for having two aspirin tablets in her knapsack as a violation of a school ZERO TOLERANCE for drugs (since she did not obtain the aspirin from the school nurse) then they can expel a kid from school for a toy gun.

My advice...Don't fight city hall with your kids future.

Just un-indoctrinate him at home.
 
#25 ·
It is sad that you have to play their game by their rules but, unless you can home school then you're pretty much stuck.
If was any other issue other than one that involved your child I would say...go fight it on principle.

But, you cannot possibly win on this one and you need to choose your battles carefully especially when dealing with the school board.

You don't want to get branded until it's absolutely necessary.
This is what it looks like when the right answer is also the most sad...I'm going to have to deal with this someday myself and I'm going to have a very hard time swallowing my own beliefs to bend to the rules of the public education system I am paying for.
 
#9 ·
I'm with QKShooter on this one. Rights have not yet been violated so all you'd be doing is marking yourself as a potential trouble maker. Hold your cards close to your vest, I would document the misinformation though and keep your eyes and ears open since you now know the "lay of the land".
 
#10 ·
I think it is simply outrageous how everything has gone to a "no-tolerance" policy. And, especially, when it comes to elementary school kids. Kids can't be kids anymore. It is ridiculous. A "no-tolerance" policy just takes any common sense handling out of the equation and makes it so school administrators don't have to work at doing their job. They don't have the ability to consider circumstances. Our world is continuing on a downward spiral. I know why and it has been expected, but we won't go into that as going there would be grounds for permanent removal from this board and I want to stay here.
 
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#33 ·
Heaven forbid your son hold hands with someone or bow his head and pray at lunch time. Zero tolerance there also.
Negative ghostrider. That one is winnable all day long. There is a sharp line drawn between staff lead and personal, volunteer, or student lead prayer. The first is not allowed. The second is nearly untouchable, except in some pretty specific circumstances. The 1a may be ill, but it ain't dead yet.

And for the OP, I've been expecting to have to deal with something for a while. Partly because of how I carry, and partly because I will not tell my kids to lie about it. However, since I don't make a big deal out of it neither have they so far. If you want to try to make changes, see if anyone on the school board is willing to take on the ridiculous notion of zero tolerance and start letting the principals make educated discipline decisions based on the event, not some piece of paper.

And good luck.
 
#12 ·
When it comes to schools systems you will not win by sticking your head into the air unless you absolutely have to. Keep it low and educate the facts at home. It is a lot of work to fix all the misinformation from the school day. They just hold all the cards and to QKSHooters point your just making yourself a target for future challenges.

I am so glad to have my kids out of our local school system. Now we just have to worry about what is taught at college. At least now they can think and have an opinion.
 
#13 ·
It is sad that you have to play their game by their rules but, unless you can home school then you're pretty much stuck.
If was any other issue other than one that involved your child I would say...go fight it on principle.

But, you cannot possibly win on this one and you need to choose your battles carefully especially when dealing with the school board.

You don't want to get branded until it's absolutely necessary.
 
#14 ·
...unless you can home school then you're pretty much stuck.
Which is one of the reasons why we decided to home school. We've chosen a lower income (wife not working outside the home) to be able to have more control over the important things.
 
#15 ·
hire a Really Good Lawyer versed in the LAW and Retire on that
No damages, no retirement. Want to really retire? Contribute real money to a real retirement plan, on a regular basis.

Otherwise, QKS hit it on the head smack on square. His advice is perfect. :yup:
 
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#48 ·
No damages, no retirement. Want to really retire? Contribute real money to a real retirement plan, on a regular basis.

Otherwise, QKS hit it on the head smack on square. His advice is perfect. :yup:
Believe it or not, the purpose behind some lawsuits is not money, but to force an end to a wrong. As much as I despise the ACLU, this case amy be right up its alley as a violation of the America Disabilities Act.
 
#16 ·
I was expelled halfway through 7th grade because someone told an 'administrator' that I said 'I was going to bring a gun to school and shoot him in the head'. I said no such thing.

I was expelled, he lied and got in no trouble whatsoever. So, kids can get expelled based on what others tell adults. Totally regardless of the truth.

So, be careful. Don't take any chances that you don't have to.
 
#17 ·
Little boys have been expelled or suspended from public schools merely for drawing pictures of guns.

It seems that regardless what sort of community a school is in they're run by liberals who for the most part are anti-gun in any way, shape or form. I doubt if you'll get anywhere, especially if schools are mostly controlled by the people who are in authority in individual schools. They're usually autonomous & run the way they see fit. In a local public high school an Army Recruiter who came by for career day was told to leave because he was Infantry & wore crossed rifles on his uniform & a rifle on his Combat Infantry Badge. Maybe a Cavalryman could have gotten by because he would have worn crossed sabers. There was a hue & cry by some parents - to no avail. The School Board wouldn't even hear the complaint. Every other place in society was treating US Service members like heroes because we were a Nation at war.

I sent my kids to Christian schools & now my kids are sending theirs to Christian schools. Most of the teachers - male & female are hunters. If it wouldn't be for the law I'd be able to pick up my grandson wearing a gun open or concealed without anyone batting an eye other than asking me what kind & caliber. The pastors & school board inquired as soon as WI had the concealed carry law enacted & indeed there is no exception to the law.
 
#19 ·
I doubt its Ohio law, but I will look around a bit.

If you really want to enact change, you need to do it from within, i.e. join the school board.

There is a lady down here who has been doing lots of good things, and is quite a speaker. She got fed up with the constant levies and current school system, so she joined the school board. I can't recall her name right now, but I will find it for you.
 
#26 ·
Thanks Buckeye.

@QK... I'm not going to freak out or anything. I'm just going to tell him that he lied, I know he lied and that not everyone is a fool or a yes man. I'm not going to upset the apple cart or even make this about guns at all. It's going to be about me telling him that I know he lied.
 
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#20 ·
I highly doubt it is law. Barstoolguru's answer applies to my state as well. I can legally carry at school, but can still be fired for it. Schools have the ability to dictate their owns rules within the confines of the law from my experience. I also agree with shooter, may cause your son issues that are not yet his issues to deal with. He will get plenty of chances just as we do as 2a promoting citizens.

Good luck!
 
#23 ·
Not to be a pain in the you know what........ But if one is seeking legal assistance a forum on the internet is not the place to find it. One needs to contact an attorney that specializes in what one is looking for. Even attorneys that have web pages do not post any legal advice on their sites.
 
#24 · (Edited)
When I was a school age kid (1960's) we talked about guns, drew pictures of guns, had cap gun fights, etc. Based on today's standards I ought to have evolved into some kind of freaky gun nut shooter/killer. Funny thing I didn't turn out like that, not even close, and I'd like some of these zero tolerance advocates to explain that to me.

My grand kids go to a private school, my daughter said she had a good feeling about the school on the first day. One of the male teachers was wearing a khaki "Remington" shirt! Now, that's what I'm talking about !!!

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do like a good fight to overturn some ridiculous policy. IMO, lessening that zero tolerance deal is literally a political hot potato. The school board, legislators, administrators, etc won't care to back off of it for one simple reason. If they did
lessen it, and there was a shooting, they wouldnt "want to hang". Even if the change they made was unrelated to the shooting, they will catch the public, media and likely the Courts wrath regardless.

Sadly there is no easy remedy for the above reason. However, a loud, active movement and voice of parents could gain some ground, though sometimes it's tough to get people together long enough to rob a wrens nest.
 
#31 ·
When I was a school age kid (1960's) we talked about guns, drew pictures of guns, had cap gun fights, etc. Based on today's standards I ought to have evolved into some kind of freaky gun nut shooter/killer. Funny thing I didn't turn out like that, not even close, and I'd like some of these zero tolerance advocates to explain that to me.
Same here and during hunting seasons it was not uncommon to see a few rifles or shotguns in the principal’s office, we would pick them up after class walk home and maybe pick off supper. And another thing almost all of us carried some type of knife, just a tool that saw lots of use on the farm.
 
#27 ·
Most of the zero tolerance policies have backfired and gotten a room full of angry parents at school board meetings. If you look close enough you can find all types of violations of zero tolerance policies.

The principal had a sweat stain that looked like a gun!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#28 ·
Home school as been a great option for my family. Shooting and 2A (and the rest of the Constitution) are part of the school program. Our kids have gotten a good education without the terrible social environment and liberal teaching at the public middle and high schools. I know it's not practical for many people, but for some it might be the best solution.
 
#29 ·
How does it go??

Don't ever poke any bears in the eye with a sharp stick ... Leave a sleeping dog lie ... Always run from skunks ...

Just make sure you instruct your children to never ever ever never ever take anything, be it a simple toy or whatever, that even resembles any type of weapon or anything that will get them in trouble to school! Especially on show & tell days, and make sure you OK what ever it is they are taking!!!

There have been elementary students that have been expelled because they wore a t-shirt to school with the name of their favorite college football team on it and the principal didn't like that team so he found a reason and expelled him for it.
 
#30 ·
I'm not for lying down for things... that's why schools get away with so much BS. But, you have to be ready for the fight.


But, pick your fights.
 
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