Recoil Magazine - "This firearm shouldn't be available to the public" piece (MERGED)
This is a discussion on Recoil Magazine - "This firearm shouldn't be available to the public" piece (MERGED) within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Sorry, that was his second attempt to rectify things - he's just trying to reword the things he wrote. Not buying it.
First, if he ...
September 10th, 2012 04:18 PM
Sorry, that was his second attempt to rectify things - he's just trying to reword the things he wrote. Not buying it.
First, if he was truly opposed to the "sporting purpose" argument, why would he pass it on in his magazine? He's is simply trying to pass the buck - "information provided to me" my butt.
Second, he's claiming he "passed on" some info about why the gun isn't available for civilian use. The reason is simple - it's capable of full auto fire, real simple; I have serious doubts that HK saying anything other than that. The dems in Congress decided a long time ago that we couldn't have one, not HK.
Third, the foolishness about keeping LEO's and military out of harms' way by denying civilians this gun shows just how ignorant he is.
He's a Fudd and I've got no use for him or the magazine.
September 10th, 2012 04:18 PM
September 11th, 2012 12:03 PM
Todd Green says it with more insight than I could:
In typical fashion, after a major public blunder, the magazine editor made another major public blunder and before you could say “Facebook!” it was being discussed in every gun-culture corner of the internet. Having failed to appease the masses with his first not-a-retraction, Tsai then decided to throw Heckler & Koch under the bus by trying to make it sound like it was that company, not him, that was opposed to “non-sporting” firearms.
As anyone who’s been reading pistol-training.com for the past few years is well aware, HK does in fact support private ownership of firearms for reasons other than playing games, hunting, or whatever else is supposed to fall under “sporting purpose.” The company worked for years to get through the minefield of German small arms export laws and U.S. small arms import laws — not to mention a huge investment in U.S.-based manufacturing — to bring their famous 416 carbine to the consumer market as the MR556. Suggesting that HK won’t produce a “civilian” legal MP7A1 out of spite or disrespect for the Second Amendment is just stupid.
Someone at HK presumably sat down and ran the numbers. First, how neutered would a US-legal over the counter MP7A1 have to be? Fire control group would need to be designed not just to be semi automatic only but also meet ATF restrictions on being converted back to select fire. A new 16″ barrel would have to be developed… not only does a 16″ bbl MP7A1 pretty much ruin the point of the MP7A1 in the first place, but do you know what HK goes through to develop new barrels? It isn’t cheap. Then you’d need 5- and 10-round magazines for various states, a fixed stock for some states, etc., etc., etc.
Next, you have to figure out how many of these neutered MP7A1′s will actually sell. It’s easy for people on the internet to say “I’d buy me one of them!” but that doesn’t actually translate one-for-one into sales of what would likely be a $2,000 firearm that uses hard to find, expensive, proprietary ammunition.
Finally, you plug all that into H.A.L. and ask him if the cost to come to market is a reasonable investment of company funds. The answer, in this case, is almost certainly no.
You want a civy-legal MP7A1? Commit to buying 25,000 of them and I’ll put you in touch with a guy at HK who might be able to make that happen for you. In the meantime, don’t get blinded by the “blame the manufacturer” smoke screen from Jerry Tsai and the public relations chimpanzees at RECOIL Magazine.
For what it's worth, this is what I had to say on the matter elsewhere:
Regarding the HK thing….
First and foremost, the author of the offending article is a douche bag, no crap FA MP7s aren’t going to be falling into the hands of the civilians, why isn’t anyone schooling him on the short list of FA / Select Fire arms that are available to civilians here in the States?
As for the angst on HK, I own several of their pistols. I like them but I wouldn’t call myself a “fan boy”
If you’re going to roll out the torch and pitch fork for HK, some things to remember:
Remington has arms you can’t get as a “civilian”
Ruger supported the Assault Weapons Ban (Oh how I bet ole’ Bill is rolling in his grave over the SR556)hell, it was only in the last couple of years they even started making current production “high” capacity magazines for the Mini 14/30 again.
Last I checked FN isn’t rolling out semi-auto versions of the 249. Despite their marketing claims what’s being built for “them” is not being built for “us”.
Does HK suck for not offering their full product line to the civilian sector? Sure, but they aren’t exactly the only ones doing so.
If you’re going to hate, hate equally. The MR556 and MR762 were released for civilian sale. Looking at the actual gun,(MP7) to import it as a pistol or non-NFA rifle would be kind of silly. Half the features that make the gun desirable would have to be removed.
No fore-grip, no stock or adding a 16″ barrel?????
Would anyone want one after it got neutered?
Lets fix the NFA and FOPA to create a market for this gun in the US and THEN we can gripe at HK for not meeting market demand.
September 11th, 2012 04:07 PM
Waaay too many gun owners feel this way. I have found fellow hunters to be the worst.
Originally Posted by mlr1m
September 11th, 2012 07:36 PM
Note that RECOIL magazine posted this "Like" on 9/11 well after their apology.
Obviously they stand defiant and stand by their original comments. To make matters worse, they've now removed their "Like" of this comment in an apparent effort to conceal their true feelings on the matter.
Stunning to say the least.
Fortunately, several people such as myself have captured their actions with screen shots and saved them for posterity.
September 11th, 2012 07:37 PM
Very interesting comments
September 11th, 2012 09:22 PM
Yeah, someone else mentioned it in an earlier post and I found the original and verified that Recoil did indeed 'like' that post. They quickly 'unliked' it when the screen caps started showing up. At this point, the hole is so deep that there's no climbing back out anyway, so...
On a side note, John Xia, who apparently just started working for Leapers/UTG, made the mistake of coming out on FB in support of JT on 9/9. On 9/10 Leapers/UTG posted a quick note to let everyone know that Mr. Xia was no longer employed with them.
September 11th, 2012 09:37 PM
Also, the list of business that have pulled advertising from Recoil is getting long. I'll post up who I know, but I'm sure it'll keep growing.
LaRue Tactical (donating the rest of their advertising that they have under contract)
September 11th, 2012 11:49 PM
An interesting turn of events, for sure.
September 12th, 2012 12:37 AM
I bought the first issue, mostly for novelty. I didn't feel the content was worth the price, so I didn't buy any afterwards.
September 12th, 2012 10:38 AM
Apparently Recoil has made an official statement regarding the whole controversy... (borrowed from Rob Pincus)
Here's the "official" word from Recoil On Jerry Tsai's continuing role:
RECOIL Magazineís Position:
In light of some of the comments and complaints made about a paragraph in a recent article about the Heckler & Koch MP7A1, Recoil wishes to make the following points clear:
∑ It is simply not credible for anyone to question Recoilís support for, and commitment to, the Second Amendment. Recoil is first and foremost a gun lifestyle magazine, aimed at the modern shooting enthusiast.
∑ The opinions in the paragraph in question accurately reflected those of the manufacturer, and should have been reported as direct quotes. Recoil acknowledges the way the paragraph was written has caused unnecessary confusion.
∑ Jerry Tsai, a passionate gun enthusiast and the visionary behind Recoil magazine, will remain as editor of Recoil.
We thank you for your support and understanding.
Quite honestly, if you read the article, it was one paragraph that was actually quoted from the manufacturer and we did not state it that way. Recoil has 26,000 likes on face book and the magazine has only been out for three issues and issue number 4 is just hitting the streets. I honestly believe that this will not hurt the magazine. I have not lost anyone as a result of this and do not expect to.
5.0 Mustang & Super Fords
Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords
Assistant: Jennifer Conklin 813-675-3507
It'll be interesting to see how many advertisers they are able to keep.
September 12th, 2012 12:42 PM
Apparently they've never heard the saying "when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging".
September 12th, 2012 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by From the original post
Hm. Should've been reported as direct quotes, eh? And the opinions accurately reflect the manufacturer's views, eh?
Originally Posted by From the attempt at explaining HK meant all of that
The protectionist clauses in the 1968 gun control statutes do require a 'sporting purpose,' thus implying that 'civvies' have no business being in possession of such things ... at least, unless they pay their tax stamp fee to the revenuers.
But the question is: whether H&K believes this and states this, as the follow-on 'apology' from Recoil claims.
Playing the skeptic, let's assume for a moment that the claim is valid that H&K has said all of these things, materially close to the opinions being posed by this trade rag. If that's true, then ...
Q: Can anyone point out the specific spots in the H&K published literature where the following phrases exist, more or less 'accurately' matching Recoil's 'opinions'?
- "the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason"
- "We all know thatís technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on"
- "This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of."
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
September 12th, 2012 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
Some readers have misinterpreted a recent feature story in RECOIL magazine as a reflection of HK policy. Heckler & Koch has a long presence in the US civilian market and throughout that time has been an ardent and passionate supporter of the Second Amendment and the American civilian shooter. This will always be the case. The contents, opinions, and statements expressed in that feature story are those of the writer, not Heckler and Koch’s. Additionally, the writer and RECOIL magazine have issued a clarification and apology for the ill-chosen words used in the story.
The HK MP7A1 4.6 mm Personal Defense Weapon mentioned in the story is a selective-fire product (capable of “full automatic” fire) and is currently restricted to military and law enforcement agencies by BATF. HK-USA has previously researched introducing similar commercial products, chambered in 4.6 mm, but it was determined that the final product would not have enough appeal or be legally feasible.
— Heckler & Koch USA
September 12th, 2012 05:25 PM
Unfortunately H&K has a sorry record when it comes to supporting 2A, so their claim of being an "ardent and passionate supporter" is about as lame as JT's backtracks.
September 12th, 2012 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by TX expat
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