I was asked to review an organization's policy

This is a discussion on I was asked to review an organization's policy within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by BugDude I'm not a lawyer, but it had already gone through their corporate safety and legal departments before it got to me. ...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 29 of 29
Like Tree32Likes

Thread: I was asked to review an organization's policy

  1. #16
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,182
    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    I'm not a lawyer, but it had already gone through their corporate safety and legal departments before it got to me. That goes to show you how much time and thought they put into it. Unfortunately, I have had many years of experience in multiple facilities with operationalizing such policies. People who have never implemented them nor enforced them just think it sounds good to say "we will search and seize" without giving any thought to the logistics of such. Realistically, they can't detain you for carrying concealed past their posted sign and then charge you with tresspass. They have to give you the opportunity to leave and you refuse. I've been there with the police department when I've had people arrested for just that (refusal to leave). I've had to testify in court in those cases also. It is just experience over theory.
    Actually you see it quite often. Something looks good on paper, but in reality it just can't/won't work. Also the departments that sign off on it don't usually study it in depth. Joe Flunky is handed it and told to look it over, then Mr. Bob BigHead signs off on it. It's just filling the squares because Ms. KnowIt All, who initiated the policy had Temperance (AKA Temp) Employee write it for her.

    Bug Dude, good job on pointing out the fallacies of their "plan" to them. It would be so much easier and cost effective to write a policy that read: "No Weapons Allowed EXCEPT those carried IAW State Law"
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

    USAF Retired
    NRA Life Member

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    VIP Member
    Array PEF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,550
    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    I was asked to review a healthcare facility's proposed weapons policy. I pointed out a few items that people were completely clueless on.

    First, it referred to legally posessed "licensed weapons." I pointed out that in this state, there is no registration or license to own a firearm....
    Perhaps they are only worried about Class III weapons?

    Seriously, sounds like that organization needs a policy review from the top down. Makes me wonder what other law-suit inducing policies they have in place....

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Gulf Coast of Florida
    Posts
    9,339
    Personally I agree with the "in accordance with state law" philosophy. The head office sends out policies that the local sites can add to, but not take from. Given some things I've seen in healthcare settings, I can understand the issue people have with patients, ERs, etc. The policy is written in a manner to cover all, patients, employees, and visitors. Too many variables for one policy for three subsets of population in my opinion. It should have separate sections for each. In the end, like I've seen in other facilities, the signs and policies do not stop things from happening. People don't pay attention or don't care. It's not really worth the paper it is written on.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  5. #19
    mkh
    mkh is offline
    Distinguished Member Array mkh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Foxhole somewhere in Jacksonville
    Posts
    1,604
    There is nothing "common" about common sense anymore.

    In fact it is far from being common.

  6. #20
    Senior Member
    Array bigdog44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    SW Ohio
    Posts
    566
    The scary part of this is just how much work we have to do in our country to ensure the 2nd Amendment does not just wither away over time. If this is the thinking in so many in authority then what will we have in five, ten, or fifteen years? What BigDude did is what we must all do. Educate and ask the right questions that bring about discomfort. Discomfort many times leads to education or allowing the educated to help. Just as he did. What strikes me most is how you handled it. Questions, calm thinking, experience, and direction that leads to them realizing they have no idea. You move to authority and can influence to some degree. Ranting and shoving firearms down their throat never works. You are smooth!

    Great post and well written to inspire thought and action for others like you who can have influence. Maybe or maybe not in a corporation but even at the dinner table with family and friends. Take this approach and change a mind slowly just as those who dislike guns do to the general public every day. Fight the misinformation with fact and logic to bring about the right conclusion. Over the years I have watched people scared of guns become fans of guns only because they think through things and realize they do have a place in society.

    Thanks for sharing!
    BugDude, darbo and Paymeister like this.
    It's not a problem til they make it one!

  7. #21
    Member Array Badbullgator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    310
    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Personally I agree with the "in accordance with state law" philosophy. The head office sends out policies that the local sites can add to, but not take from. Given some things I've seen in healthcare settings, I can understand the issue people have with patients, ERs, etc. The policy is written in a manner to cover all, patients, employees, and visitors. Too many variables for one policy for three subsets of population in my opinion. It should have separate sections for each. In the end, like I've seen in other facilities, the signs and policies do not stop things from happening. People don't pay attention or don't care. It's not really worth the paper it is written on.
    What part of the gulf coast? I am in SWFL and none of our hospitals are posted (not that it means anything) except one that is more of the, um...."urban" kind of ER. None of ours have any kind of noticeable security at the entrances other than the one ER. EVen at that one you could go in the front door, which is unposted and walk through the hospital to the ER.

    the last time I was at one of our ER's there were 4-5 guys there with one guy who had been stabbed. Shortly after they arrived another group arrived with another guy who had been stabbed. It was very obvious that the two had stabbed each other and the situation had not been resolved. The staff indicated they had called the sheriff and both parties left. The point of the story is that two rival, going out on a limb here, gangs who had just had a very violent encounter had ended up in the same ER and the police had to be called. Had to be called.....meaning none there and they don't want to allow me to be armed to protect myself?

    Good work, but the best policy is to simply follow Florida law. It is a good thing to point out that bad guys don't obey signs or policy's and that they only affect those of us who follow the law.
    A word to the wise isn't necessary, save it for the stupid

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    3,373
    Well done BudDude!
    "Was there no end to the conspiracy of irrational prejudice against Red Ryder and his peacemaker?"

    Revolvers, “more elegant weapons for a more civilized age.”

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    OKC; by way of St. Mayberry, GA
    Posts
    4,750
    Sounds like a good, quality critique of their proposed policies. I second the 'Bravo Zulu' in that they asked a knowledgable 'somebody' to 'give it to 'em stright'.

    You did a good job me thinks.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  10. #24
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    15,952
    In referencing Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership by Joh Gutmacher, the carrying of a concealed firearm into a hospital or mental heath facility is gray area with no "case law" test, and he urges caution. The caution is for FS 394.458 that prohibits firearms on the grounds of any "hospital (or mental health facility) that provides mental health services" except as "authorized by law. He staes almost all hospitals provide mental health services to some degree.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    821
    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    ...The only problem is there are no lockers at this time, no one has any idea where they would be located, the logistics behind how it would work, etc. I asked questions like "would we provide locks? Who would maintain control over the key? Are you providing the visitor with use of the locker or is it considered your locker and you are securing the items? Do they have a reasonable expectation of privacy (meaning we can't search their belongings inside the locker)?" Again, it was jaws open like "ummm, we don't know." Easy to put stuff that sounds good in a policy, but they didn't put any infrastructure in place before hand. Again, amazing.
    The Bellingham, WA end of the Alaska Marine Highway (ferry) has some lockers out by the parking lot for people who want to go grab a bite while waiting for the ship without having to carry their luggage with them. I have no idea if it is a service offered by AMHS or if it is offered by the outfit they rent facilities from, but it seems to work out pretty well. Seattle Greyhound has similar lockers, in a seperate room away from the lobby. Either way, a medium sized explosion would cause minimal damage to people in the area.

    In each case, the customer drops his money in and pockets the key. The rental is for a short time. I never read any instructions, but "the locker will be emptied and contents disposed of if the rent is not renewed" seems a reasonable assumption. Likewise "This area monitored by CCTV".
    BugDude likes this.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Gulf Coast of Florida
    Posts
    9,339
    Amen to notion that it should now be called "Uncommon Sense" because it is not at all common anymore.

    Many high level executives think at 60,000 foot view levels and not at the detail implementation level. That is understandable given the nature of their role. There are idea people and implementation people.

    There is a test to tell if you would make a good executive. It is several simple questions:

    1) How do you put an elephant into a refrigerator?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .answer: You just open the door and put him in. This question tests your ability to simplfy objectives and not overcomplicate task oriented goals.

    2) How do you put a giraffe in a refrigerator?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .answer. You take out the elephant and put in the giraffe. This question tests your foresight and ability to connect objectives together as a series of steps.

    3) The Lion King is throwing a big party and invites all of the animals to attend. Who does not show up?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .answer: The giraffe, because he is in the refrigerator.

    4) There is a river in the Kingdom that is inhabited by alligators and the gazelles wish to cross it. How do they do so without getting eaten?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .answer: They just walk through it. All of the alligators are at the Lion King's party. This tests your memory and ability to see through situations relative to the big picture.


    If you scored 100, you're perfect high level executive material. If not, stick to implementation.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  13. #27
    Member Array _Hawkeye_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    272
    Funny they put so much effort into a policy that will just be ignored anyway.
    English is my second language, I have been told my use of it is harsh, apologies if this is the matter.

    You know what stops a bad guy with a gun? A good guy with a gun

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    2,338
    Don't you know that when you have a "No Gun" policy, all criminals will follow it? That's the only way to create a safe zone free from guns and killing.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote." ~ Benjamin Franklin

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array TWO GUNS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    2,628
    Good job BugDude
    Have Fun and Shoot Straight !!

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

policy of organization reviewed, when and by who

Click on a term to search for related topics.