I was asked to review an organization's policy

This is a discussion on I was asked to review an organization's policy within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I was asked to review a healthcare facility's proposed weapons policy. I pointed out a few items that people were completely clueless on. First, it ...

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I was asked to review an organization's policy

    I was asked to review a healthcare facility's proposed weapons policy. I pointed out a few items that people were completely clueless on.

    First, it referred to legally posessed "licensed weapons." I pointed out that in this state, there is no registration or license to own a firearm. Several people thought that the paperwork one goes through to buy a gun was a registration. I informed them there is no way for them to determine what is or is not legally owned. Only license required is to carry concealed.

    Second, it indicated people would be searched and weapons seized. Then returned unloaded and that ammunition would not be returned. I pointed out that they cannot detain nor forcibly search anyone that is not a patient. Just ask them and if they refuse ask them to leave and if not call police for tresspass. You should have seen the looks on the faces when they said the gun would be returned unloaded and I asked, "ok, who is going to handle, secure, and unload the gun? Where will this take place? What training will be required and what safety equipment will be provided like a bullet trap and eye and ear protection? Will there be such a qualified person available 24/7? Is there a separate policy on the handling of the weapon to address these issues?" I had a table full of highly educated people staring at me like "oh crap, didn't think of that." I pointed out the last thing you wanted was someone handling a loaded firearm without proper training and protocol. That's more dangerous than a person carrying it in a holster.

    Third, I pointed out that they could not legally refuse to return the ammo. That is theft because they have no authority to take it and not return it. Several said, "but it is illegal for them to carry it here, etc." and I pointed out that in this state the signs hold no force of law. It is not breaking a law, just their policy. It would be no different than me sticking a "no loaded wallets" sign on my front door and then keeping the contents of someone's wallet when they enter my house. Self defense ammo can cost as much as $2.50 per round. Given a 15 round mag and a spare, that's $90 in ammo. They would potentially put themselves in a position in which they have no leg to stand on. It is legally owned private property.

    In the end, I had raised many more questions than people had answers to. People stick these policies out there without any thought as to how to implement or the consequences of such. Amazing.
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    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    At least they asked. It could've turned into a fiasco if they had implemented without understanding the consequences.

    And a very good, and well articulated review I might add.

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    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

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    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    Are you a lawyer? Or in the legal field? It doesn't make sense this organization, being "well-educated" as you said would not discuss the issue with a lawyer,..but then again, neither does implementing a victim disarmament zone and trying to steal peoples ammo (really? wth!? thats just plain disrespectful.)

    Unfortunately, I've seen first hand that well-educated=/=common sense. I'm not bashing higher-education, in fact I'm a college student myself,..


    "To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.

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    Wait, they would not return ammunition ever? Are these people brain dead. So I leave with a an unloaded gun and then get assaulted in the parking lot with no way to defend myself? If I lived someone is getting sued. Oh and try and tell and off duty cop you aren't giving him his ammo back. LOL
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    Great job! Hopefully the gained a little understanding of such stupid decisions/policies.

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    At least they had the sense to ask someone to look over the policy. Good job on your part.

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    Well done! My compliments to whoever suggested running proposed policy past a voice of reason.

    Wish I could have been a fly on the wall for that discussion!
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmed3 View Post
    Great job! Hopefully the gained a little understanding of such stupid decisions/policies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glhadiator View Post
    At least they had the sense to ask someone to look over the policy. Good job on your part.
    [QUOTE=zacii;2405264]At least they asked. It could've turned into a fiasco if they had implemented without understanding the consequences.

    And a very good, and well articulated review I might add.

    Sent from my Galaxy S2[/QUOTE



    ^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    Common sense ain't so common sometimes the higher the education.
    They think they know more than the "folks beneath them"

    Funny sometimes when they get the "deer in the headlights look", try to stay composed and assert that they have things under control.
    What a hoot!
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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghettokracker71 View Post
    Are you a lawyer? Or in the legal field? It doesn't make sense this organization, being "well-educated" as you said would not discuss the issue with a lawyer,..but then again, neither does implementing a victim disarmament zone and trying to steal peoples ammo (really? wth!? thats just plain disrespectful.)

    Unfortunately, I've seen first hand that well-educated=/=common sense. I'm not bashing higher-education, in fact I'm a college student myself,..
    I'm not a lawyer, but it had already gone through their corporate safety and legal departments before it got to me. That goes to show you how much time and thought they put into it. Unfortunately, I have had many years of experience in multiple facilities with operationalizing such policies. People who have never implemented them nor enforced them just think it sounds good to say "we will search and seize" without giving any thought to the logistics of such. Realistically, they can't detain you for carrying concealed past their posted sign and then charge you with tresspass. They have to give you the opportunity to leave and you refuse. I've been there with the police department when I've had people arrested for just that (refusal to leave). I've had to testify in court in those cases also. It is just experience over theory.
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    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    So just what political office do these people hold? Because they sure sound like politicians!
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    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    It does not surprise me at all that such a policy made it as far as it did. It is the same MO as many other businesses, banks, insurance companies, etc.; and please lets not forget some of the equally inane laws on the books, most of which are brought to us by our good and wise representatives at every level of government from local to federal.

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    Should of pointed out the recent LEO/airport fiasco where they tried to unload a revolver and discharged the weapon.Most non gun people try to be experts in something they have no idea what they are saying but a masters degree and a little research qualifies them to write a paper that to gun people would receive an "F"
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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I will say that there was one positive element of the policy that I had not anticipated. It said if someone had a bag that they did not want searched they could secure it in a locker. The only problem is there are no lockers at this time, no one has any idea where they would be located, the logistics behind how it would work, etc. I asked questions like "would we provide locks? Who would maintain control over the key? Are you providing the visitor with use of the locker or is it considered your locker and you are securing the items? Do they have a reasonable expectation of privacy (meaning we can't search their belongings inside the locker)?" Again, it was jaws open like "ummm, we don't know." Easy to put stuff that sounds good in a policy, but they didn't put any infrastructure in place before hand. Again, amazing.
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    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

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    Great job of educating them, BugDude! Did they offer you a postion as the head "Gun Unloading Guy"?
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    Distinguished Member Array phreddy's Avatar
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    Great job!

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