Do you support a businesses right to ban guns(Poll added) - Page 23

Do you support a businesses right to ban guns(Poll added)

This is a discussion on Do you support a businesses right to ban guns(Poll added) within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by suntzu I think we can all agree to support this sign: Attachment 63899 Of-course, because that's a residence, not open to the ...

View Poll Results: Do you support a business's right to ban guns?

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    87 82.86%
  • NO

    18 17.14%
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Thread: Do you support a businesses right to ban guns(Poll added)

  1. #331
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I think we can all agree to support this sign:
    Attachment 63899
    Of-course, because that's a residence, not open to the public.


  2. #332
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    Of-course, because that's a residence, not open to the public.
    Ask before you make assumptions.....it is a used car dealership
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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  3. #333
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eipo View Post
    ArmyMan,

    Not sure what happened. I had a reply typed out and it got all garbled when I posted it. Ill get back to it.
    That happens to me sometimes while I'm using Chrome. I don't know if this forum has the auto-save addon for the vBulliten software, so I would suggest making your post on a separate word doc before posting. I've had to do that on other forums in the past.

  4. #334
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Ask before you make assumptions.....it is a used car dealership
    Then you should ask before you "think" because, no, we would not all support that.

  5. #335
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    [QUOTE=eipo;2434026]Hello from MI.

    I am going to disagree. If a property is posted, you are aware of their intentions. MI firearm laws only protect you if you are somewhere you are "legally allowed to be." If you cross the sign, are you legally allowed to be carrying on the property?

    ETA: I do believe that if the sign meets regulation, in MI they do carry the weight of law.[/QUOTE]



    ^^^^^^^^^NO they do not,,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    There is no law explicitly defining/regulating Gun buster signs in Mi.
    Therefore, it is like the situation regarding no law saying open carrying is illegal, therefore it must be alright/legal(which it is).


    This here will enlighten you as to what is allowed, and explains "where you have a right to be", what is a "pistol free zone"(which BTW is the places you are not allowed to be{with a pistol})


    2. Are there any places where I may not carry a concealed pistol?

    MCL 28.425o Anyone licensed to carry a concealed pistol from Michigan or another state shall not carry a concealed pistol in any of the pistol free zones. For a complete list, please see: Pistol Free Areas . Under Federal law, firearms are also restricted in federal facilities. A federal facility means "a building or part thereof owned or leased by the federal government, where federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties." This includes facilities such as post offices and federal courts.

    From Here.....
    MSP - Michigan's Concealed Pistol Law - FAQs

    Here is the definition of a "pistol Free zone",

    Pistol Free Areas
    Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:


    Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian

    Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

    Sports arena or stadium

    A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

    Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

    An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

    A hospital

    A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

    A Casino


    "Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.



    A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CPL holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The pistol is only subject to seizure if the holder is carrying it concealed. The following penalties may also be imposed:


    First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CPL permit suspended 6 months
    Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CPL permit revoked
    Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CPL permit revoked

    Furthermore, effective March 29, 2001, per Administrative Order 2001-1 of the Michigan Supreme Court:

    "Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy."
    From Here..... MSP - Pistol Free Areas
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  6. #336
    Member Array eipo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    That happens to me sometimes while I'm using Chrome. I don't know if this forum has the auto-save addon for the vBulliten software, so I would suggest making your post on a separate word doc before posting. I've had to do that on other forums in the past.
    Just tried again and it did the same thing. Ill do it right here...

    I had not considered the "open to the public" aspect. That certainly does change my scenario!

    Your cell phone scenario brings up some interesting points.. Id like to digest that a bit and get back to it.
    ArmyMan likes this.

  7. #337
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    Then you should ask before you "think" because, no, we would not all support that.
    The picture was to add some levity to this thread. If you did not pick up on that sorry. Next time I will be clear of the intent of a post with several emoticons and a detailed history and pictures of the establishent.
    =humor
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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  8. #338
    Member Array eipo's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=oneshot;2434168]
    Quote Originally Posted by eipo View Post
    Hello from MI.

    I am going to disagree. If a property is posted, you are aware of their intentions. MI firearm laws only protect you if you are somewhere you are "legally allowed to be." If you cross the sign, are you legally allowed to be carrying on the property?

    ETA: I do believe that if the sign meets regulation, in MI they do carry the weight of law.[/QUOTE]



    ^^^^^^^^^NO they do not,,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    There is no law explicitly defining/regulating Gun buster signs in Mi.
    Therefore, it is like the situation regarding no law saying open carrying is illegal, therefore it must be alright/legal(which it is).


    This here will enlighten you as to what is allowed, and explains "where you have a right to be", what is a "pistol free zone"(which BTW is the places you are not allowed to be{with a pistol})


    2. Are there any places where I may not carry a concealed pistol?

    MCL 28.425o Anyone licensed to carry a concealed pistol from Michigan or another state shall not carry a concealed pistol in any of the pistol free zones. For a complete list, please see: Pistol Free Areas . Under Federal law, firearms are also restricted in federal facilities. A federal facility means "a building or part thereof owned or leased by the federal government, where federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties." This includes facilities such as post offices and federal courts.

    From Here.....
    MSP - Michigan's Concealed Pistol Law - FAQs

    Here is the definition of a "pistol Free zone",

    Pistol Free Areas
    Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:


    Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian

    Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

    Sports arena or stadium

    A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

    Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

    An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

    A hospital

    A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

    A Casino


    "Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.



    A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CPL holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The pistol is only subject to seizure if the holder is carrying it concealed. The following penalties may also be imposed:


    First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CPL permit suspended 6 months
    Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CPL permit revoked
    Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CPL permit revoked

    Furthermore, effective March 29, 2001, per Administrative Order 2001-1 of the Michigan Supreme Court:

    "Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy."
    From Here..... MSP - Pistol Free Areas
    I am aware of MI's PFZ, thank you.

    That has no bearing on a private business or property owner posting "no firearms."

    There is no statute on size of the words or sign location, but the sign itself is a reasonable conveyance of the property owners wishes and if you ignore it, you are trespassing.

    Michigan - -(Ammoland.com)- Q: Is there a specific design for the no gun allowed sign?

    Does the law say where it has to be placed at a business, such as on the door or adjacent window leading into the business?

    A: There are no specifications for “No Guns” or “No Weapons” signs in Michigan law. Under the law, there are two ways for a CPL holder to know that guns are not allowed in a specific location. The first is the list of “Pistol Free Zones” (often colloquially referred to as violent criminal empowerment zones) that we must all memorize, which is part of the CPL statute (Pistol Free Areas).

    The second is when the owner or lessor of any real property communicates to us that our guns are not welcome there. That communication must be reasonable in order to be effective. By reasonable, I don’t mean polite. I mean that there is an effective means of communicating to us that we are not welcome so long as we are carrying our guns. This can be done with a sign, verbally, or in some kind of printed material.

    For instance, if there is a reasonably-sized and located sign in a retail establishment indicating that guns or weapons are not allowed, that would constitute reasonable notice. If an employee of the same establishment actually tells you that you may not carry on the premises, that would constitute reasonable notice. If your employer has an employee handbook or some kind of printed guidelines, and includes a prohibition on guns and/or weapons, that would constitute reasonable notice.

    If you choose to ignore any such reasonable notice, then you become a trespasser rather than a business invitee. Trespass can be punished as a crime and/or in civil court, and could affect your CPL licensing status.

    Read more at Ammoland.com: No Guns Allowed Sign - Legal Requirements
    No Guns Allowed Sign - Legal Requirements

  9. #339
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    The picture was to add some levity to this thread. If you did not pick up on that sorry. Next time I will be clear of the intent of a post with several emoticons and a detailed history and pictures of the establishent.
    ...implying humor is appropriate in the first place....

    Humor = distraction, and distraction + firearm = ND, so I don't typically look for or insert humor when on the topic of firearms.

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    • My front yard is not open to the public in the first place. We're talking about businesses which are open to the public precisely because of unique and special laws which only apply to private land which is open to the public, such as Public Accommodation, as previously sourced.
    • Even if my front yard were open to the public, a campaign event can be disruptive. A concealed firearm is not disruptive. A concealed firearm will go completely unnoticed the majority of the time. That's kind of what "concealed" carry means in the first place.
    Sorry but private property is still private property even if it's open to the public. They absolutely do not lose the right to what they must accept on their property simply because it is "open to the public". Any assumption that they do isn't going to be supported by any argument based on legal rights. "Open to the public" does not equal open to the will of the people.

    You seem to be missing the quite distinct point that a landowner does not have to demonstrate a specific need to prohibit any thing or action on their property, they can just do it because it's their property. So, given your example, the tree farm could absolutely prohibit cell phones and, if they discovered one, ask you to remove the cell phone from their property (or whatever complied with their policy). If you refuse to abide by their policy they are 100% within their legal rights to ask you to leave and if you do not, then you are trespassing. That's where it becomes a criminal act prosecutable under the state laws governing trespassing. They aren't making up laws, you as a trespasser, are breaking existing laws. They can make policy, rules or whatever you want to call them, but they aren't laws. You can't walk into III Forks with cutoffs and a sleeveless t-shirt and expect to get a table. Why? Because they have a dress code. If you can't meet it, you'll be eating somewhere else because you don't have any "rights" to eat there that supersedes their right to establish their own policy on proper attire. If you tell them that you are hungry and go sit down anyway then you are trespassing and you will probably be charged with such if you don't get out before the police show up to remove you.

  11. #341
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    Sorry but private property is still private property even if it's open to the public.
    There's a world of difference between a residence and a business. Failure to account for these differences is why you're wrong on this topic.

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    ...implying humor is appropriate in the first place....

    Humor = distraction, and distraction + firearm = ND, so I don't typically look for or insert humor when on the topic of firearms.
    http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/...ten+up+Francis
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  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    ...implying humor is appropriate in the first place....

    Humor = distraction, and distraction + firearm = ND, so I don't typically look for or insert humor when on the topic of firearms.
    I find many of your posts very humorous. Fortunately, I'm not handling firearms while I read them, so there is no risk of ND.
    suntzu, Brad426 and TX expat like this.
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  14. #344
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I find many of your posts very humorous. Fortunately, I'm not handling firearms while I read them, so there is no risk of ND.


    That there is funny!
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    There's a world of difference between a residence and a business. Failure to account for these differences is why you're wrong on this topic.
    And you have something besides your opinion to base that on? Because in this particular case, I'm not wrong. Private property owned by a business does have some different legal governances that separate it from residential private property, but none that I know of with regards to loss of private property rights. If you have something that you'd like to offer as legal backup, I'm all for seeing it. Otherwise it's just an opinion...

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