The mind of a self-defense trial juror

This is a discussion on The mind of a self-defense trial juror within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Dateline ran a story last Saturday on the 2004 Fish/Kuenzli shooting, which has been well covered. Part of the story included an interview of two ...

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Thread: The mind of a self-defense trial juror

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    Member Array whitestone's Avatar
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    The mind of a self-defense trial juror

    Dateline ran a story last Saturday on the 2004 Fish/Kuenzli shooting, which has been well covered. Part of the story included an interview of two of the jurors that found Fish guilty of second degree murder. Their words are a pretty sobering look at what the average juror not versed in the carrying of firearms is looking at in a self-defense shooting.

    One of the jurors, a thirtyish female teacher said that she found him guilty in part because he carried hollow points, which (to paraphrase her words) "are intended to kill." How Fish's lawyers let a jury convince itself that carrying a self-defense round shows an intent to kill or is otherwise a negative circumstance is beyond me.

    The same juror also said that although Fish summoned help and apparently gave some basic first aid, he did not do enough, such as try to stop the bleeding by applying pressure. Putting aside the emotion that you just felt that the person you shot tried to kill you, getting close enough to give that sort of first aid even to an injured BG is just putting yourself in harm's way again. You can bet he's not going to be thanking you at that point. Would you do that?

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    Heck no, getting close is a bad idea. Too bad alot of people have been "brainwashed " with all the media b.s. how criminals are just misunderstood, misguided good people.
    I wonder if any of the jury members had actually been the victims , if they would feel the same way?
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    Strikes me the defence attorney did not properly cover such aspects - at least in his summing up. Cops carry HP's and also IIRC will await EMT's with injured BG's.

    Jurors like that have the usual head full of media hype and not much real knowledge - very niéve and dangerous.
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    I was just waiting for a defense attorney to call up some LEO and ask what type of round (JHP or FMJ) that the dept. issued.

    And as the 10MM being more powerful, that was more BS (not on the more powerful, but on bending the perception of the jurors).

    Sadly, perception is more real than reality.

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    Senior Member Array my2cents's Avatar
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    Sadly, this is another "precidence" setting cases. We have a lot of educating to do ....
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    I was just waiting for a defense attorney to call up some LEO and ask what type of round (JHP or FMJ) that the dept. issued.

    And as the 10MM being more powerful, that was more BS (not on the more powerful, but on bending the perception of the jurors).

    Sadly, perception is more real than reality.
    "The 10mm is more powerful than what cops carry on duty" Maybe because that's what they were issued, what if they had a choice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrioticRick View Post
    "The 10mm is more powerful than what cops carry on duty" Maybe because that's what they were issued, what if they had a choice?
    I caught this program also, and the above quote sorta stumped me abit. Isnt the 10mm in between a .40S&W and .45 ACP? Geez, I dont think that is more powerful. Now if it had been a .50AE, well, maybe.

    Yes, about the hollowpoint statement. Just think if they had been FMJ's, gone thru the body and hit poor Bambi, then we would be hearing from PETA too.

    Sometime you cant win for losing. I think it is up on appeal now, and read something about how they are trying to use the new law, that passed after the event, to coinside with this case.

    No one wants to shoot someone, I am sure, but if necessary, like in this case, when he "sick'd" his dogs onto Mr. Fish, go for the dogs and then the "sicker". I thought he did enough after the shooting; making the perp abit more comfortable and going for help. Wadda you want his to do? When you got 3-10mm holes in you, not much you can do, lest pray.

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    10mm has higher velocity than 40 S&W or .45 ACP. The .40 S&W is a short case length 10mm.
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    So much for a jury of your peers.
    Certainly not my peers...
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    Senior Member Array palmgopher's Avatar
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    lmao........you know never thought of it that way.....especially in this case i am sure it wasnt his peers =O)

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    so 10mm is to .40cal as 9mm is to .380. LOL
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    Hind sight is 20/20.
    The mindset of these jurors is frightening. Unfortunately it's probably common.

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    What goes through the head of a juror... let's see.

    "Did my gov't check show up yet?" (Who else can take so much time off work?)

    "Do they deliver pizza here?"

    "That lawyer has nice hair?"

    "I wonder if the judge has any pants on under that robe?"

    "Is Survivor on tongiht?"

    My faith in juries is practically nil. If such fallacies were allowed to continue one must wonder how bad the defense attorney was?!?!

    Here is a legal question.

    Since these jurors admit to convicting him based on using HPs (like almost every LEO in the USA) and for not directly giving first aid (like LEOs are tought not to do) it would seem he was convicted on admitted falsehoods. Is that grounds for an appeal?

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    I like the 10mm bit too.

    If I ever use my 10mm and they try to fry me on it I will can easily point to the fact that the nations premier Law Enforcement Agency, the FBI, had approved and assigned that weapon to its agents. They may haev changed since but there were millions spent judging the round and approving it for use.

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    missed the beginning of the show so I may have missed some vital info., but it seemed to me that his defense attorney didn't do a very good job of covering some of the points he was convicted on. Maybe he did and I missed it. What I have read was he was cooperative, which may have not helped him as his story changed several times under interrogation and they used this against him. Not surprising that would happen, after all that is why they give LEO time off, so they can get their thoughts together after a stressful encounter.

    There really were not enough facts for me to convict him, but that is because Dateline gives you what they want you to see.
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