Three reasons gun control isn't going to happen - Page 3

Three reasons gun control isn't going to happen

This is a discussion on Three reasons gun control isn't going to happen within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by suntzu I guess we will just have to see who is more correct...Let us hope I am EDIT: BTW: I am agreeing ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I guess we will just have to see who is more correct...Let us hope I am

    EDIT: BTW: I am agreeing with you on past atrocities and how humans can treat each other. I am not agreeing that the government is disarming its citizens in some nefarious plot to start committing murder and genocide. That is the difference. One is human nature in general, the other is a manipulation by person or persons to direct this anger toward a set of people.
    That is not their goal now. It rarely is, or at least stated publicly as such. But what one man uses for good, another will use for evil. Kind of like guns. Once we are unarmed(for our own good), who is there to stop the next despot from taking power? Do I think that Obama wants to destroy our country? No, well, just to spin people up I will say maybe, but does that mean that his policies won't lead to fundamental changes like he promised?
    Walk softly ...


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Sorry, I never buy those analogies. You are overlooking the many other countries that have a strict gun policy and their are no massacres. In fact, the one you mention are the rare instances and used to hype up an issue.

    The fact is if we had no guns Americans are not going to massacre each under from orders by our government. Ain't gong to happen. Do you honestly think that our military will do mass executions on the order of this president or any other? No way.

    I can not fathom why this is even brought up. Respectfully it is a Chicken Little arguement. I prefer to use something that is more rationale. Cite the increase in violent crime, cite how a female can not protect themselves against a rapists even if he has only a knife because there are no more guns. Cite a million other reason that do happen and can happen.

    But you have to convince me that it is even possible for our government to order the genocide of our own people which you will never do. That analogy again is just an alarmists way of expressing something that won't happen here.

    ^^^^suntzu^^^^^^^^

    Have you ever heard of Agenda 21?

    Heres a link.
    Is the Soros-Sponsored ‘Agenda 21′ a Hidden Plan for World Government? (Yes, Only it Is Not Hidden) | Video | TheBlaze.com
    What makes you think that when the SHTF, it will be the U.S. of A's "army?

    What makes anyone think there won't be mercenaries or "other" armies available to do all these dastardly plans they have for us?
    It sounds crazy, and out there, but it is VERY plausible.

    I know,I know, somebody go ahead now and give me a, "but this is the United States of America, they wouldn't do that here".
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array KoriBustard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keboostman View Post
    The writer of the article is engaging in some serious wishful thinking. Come next year I predict we will see some serious restrictions on high capacity magazines, military-style weapons and private gun sales.
    I agree, this is a lot of wishful thinking.
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^suntzu^^^^^^^^

    Have you ever heard of Agenda 21?

    Heres a link.
    Is the Soros-Sponsored ‘Agenda 21′ a Hidden Plan for World Government? (Yes, Only it Is Not Hidden) | Video | TheBlaze.com
    What makes you think that when the SHTF, it will be the U.S. of A's "army?

    What makes anyone think there won't be mercenaries or "other" armies available to do all these dastardly plans they have for us?
    It sounds crazy, and out there, but it is VERY plausible.

    I know,I know, somebody go ahead now and give me a, "but this is the United States of America, they wouldn't do that here".
    I was replying to analogies of where the governments of each country that banned weapons were the ones doing the genocide or mass killings...that is why. Your post is not what I was replying to and is a different matter. Go back to the first post I replied to.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  5. #35
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    I think this thread shows that many of us tend to be a bit too pessimistic. The reality is that in spite of the endless problems with our government, this is still a great country to live in. History tells us that it's not going to last forever, so I say enjoy your remaining freedom while it lasts.
    The problem with gun control is that drugs are already illegal.

  6. #36
    New Member Array chuckb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Sorry, I never buy those analogies. You are overlooking the many other countries that have a strict gun policy and their are no massacres. In fact, the one you mention are the rare instances and used to hype up an issue.

    The fact is if we had no guns Americans are not going to massacre each under from orders by our government. Ain't gong to happen. Do you honestly think that our military will do mass executions on the order of this president or any other? No way.

    I can not fathom why this is even brought up. Respectfully it is a Chicken Little arguement. I prefer to use something that is more rationale. Cite the increase in violent crime, cite how a female can not protect themselves against a rapists even if he has only a knife because there are no more guns. Cite a million other reason that do happen and can happen.

    But you have to convince me that it is even possible for our government to order the genocide of our own people which you will never do. That analogy again is just an alarmists way of expressing something that won't happen here.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I was replying to analogies of where the governments of each country that banned weapons were the ones doing the genocide or mass killings...that is why. Your post is not what I was replying to and is a different matter. Go back to the first post I replied to.
    Your logic is so flawed and misguided.

    History is riddled with people doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Yes, including *gasp* AMERICANS!!!! (I know, incredible considering americans are morally superior people to the rest of humanity)

    How did the natzi's kill the jew's???? Did they have the soldiers gun them all down in the streets as they found them????? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!! They had the soldiers round them up and then only a few people did the actual killing.

    How bout the Japanese "internment camps" during WW2??????? These were mostly AMERICAN CITIZENS that had their rights revoked by executive order. Most of these folks were born US citizens!!!! They were eligible to become President for Christs sake!!!!!! Yet they were rounded up by AMERICAN troops and put into concentration camps, WITHOUT BREAKING ANY LAW WHATSOEVER.

    In 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation said that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership"

    Panic takes over and people willingly do the WRONG THING based on good intentions. It's harder to make a decision to round up people and put them in camps, knowing said people are armed. Having an armed population is perhaps more effective as a deterrent than actually waging an actual resistance. But that's sorta the point. Armed resistance is the last resort versus the only resort. For when you lack leverage you must create it to have a say.

    The whole point is extremely simple. If the people are stronger than the US army they will be in charge. If they're not stronger then they are at the mercy of the Government. Maybe the Government will allow them to make decisions, even then it's a facade. Who's really in charge?

    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    I have studied history and this is a discussion that can not take place in this forum unless we are to be able to post 5 pages of supporting documents to support ones ideas. For every item you or someone else brings up I can refute that with something else or say it is not the same and come up with a historic parelell, which of course you and others can counter back.

    The fact is most folks are postulating that if it is possible then it can happen. Duh, of course. So I will exit this debate with my own feeling on the odds of US Citizens at the behest of their government will commit genocide are slim to none and will not ever happen.

    If you feel that it is likely then that is cool also.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  8. #38
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckb View Post
    Your logic is so flawed and misguided.

    History is riddled with people doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Yes, including *gasp* AMERICANS!!!! (I know, incredible considering americans are morally superior people to the rest of humanity)

    How did the natzi's kill the jew's???? Did they have the soldiers gun them all down in the streets as they found them????? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!! They had the soldiers round them up and then only a few people did the actual killing.

    How bout the Japanese "internment camps" during WW2??????? These were mostly AMERICAN CITIZENS that had their rights revoked by executive order. Most of these folks were born US citizens!!!! They were eligible to become President for Christs sake!!!!!! Yet they were rounded up by AMERICAN troops and put into concentration camps, WITHOUT BREAKING ANY LAW WHATSOEVER.

    In 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation said that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership"

    Panic takes over and people willingly do the WRONG THING based on good intentions. It's harder to make a decision to round up people and put them in camps, knowing said people are armed. Having an armed population is perhaps more effective as a deterrent than actually waging an actual resistance. But that's sorta the point. Armed resistance is the last resort versus the only resort. For when you lack leverage you must create it to have a say.

    The whole point is extremely simple. If the people are stronger than the US army they will be in charge. If they're not stronger then they are at the mercy of the Government. Maybe the Government will allow them to make decisions, even then it's a facade. Who's really in charge?

    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson
    I would argue that your logic is flawed and misguided. Yes, the federal government is gradually gaining more and more control, but there is no way to accurately predict what is going to happen in our future. The only thing that is certain is our "Empire" will end... eventually.
    The problem with gun control is that drugs are already illegal.

  9. #39
    New Member Array chuckb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I have studied history and this is a discussion that can not take place in this forum unless we are to be able to post 5 pages of supporting documents to support ones ideas. For every item you or someone else brings up I can refute that with something else or say it is not the same and come up with a historic parelell, which of course you and others can counter back.

    The fact is most folks are postulating that if it is possible then it can happen. Duh, of course. So I will exit this debate with my own feeling on the odds of US Citizens at the behest of their government will commit genocide are slim to none and will not ever happen.

    If you feel that it is likely then that is cool also.
    Possible???? Duhhhhh... HELLO?????? It's already happened.

    The government revoking a citizens rights and rounding up a certain race of people and detaining them in concentration camps goes against EVERYTHING America is and stands for. The only difference between that and the natzi's is the natzi's had a few people murdering most of them.

  10. #40
    New Member Array chuckb's Avatar
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    You're entire point was based on the morality of US soldiers, and the assumption that in a 'genocide' every soldier kills people dead as they find them. It's a false assumption. Japanese internment played out just like the holocaust. The Natzi's didn't count on all of their soldiers killing Jews as they found them. That would be a bad strategy, and simply wasn't necessary. Do you think all the Natzi soldiers were explicitly ordered to bring the Jew's to the camps so they could all be killed? No. They were simply ordered to round them up. Only a few people did the actual killing.

    I mean seriously.... what do you think would have happened if Hitler told his army to "go out and everybody kill the jews when you find them"....???? It's just ridiculous that that's how you imagine this type of scenerio playing out....

  11. #41
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckb View Post
    Possible???? Duhhhhh... HELLO?????? It's already happened.

    The government revoking a citizens rights and rounding up a certain race of people and detaining them in concentration camps goes against EVERYTHING America is and stands for. The only difference between that and the natzi's is the natzi's had a few people murdering most of them.
    In a way you are right, but you are taking it to a completely different level that is not part of this reality. If you really think that America has turned into Nazi Germany, then please explain further because I would like to know.
    The problem with gun control is that drugs are already illegal.

  12. #42
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Sorry, I never buy those analogies. You are overlooking the many other countries that have a strict gun policy and their are no massacres. In fact, the one you mention are the rare instances and used to hype up an issue.

    The fact is if we had no guns Americans are not going to massacre each under from orders by our government. Ain't gong to happen. Do you honestly think that our military will do mass executions on the order of this president or any other? No way.

    I can not fathom why this is even brought up. Respectfully it is a Chicken Little arguement. I prefer to use something that is more rationale. Cite the increase in violent crime, cite how a female can not protect themselves against a rapists even if he has only a knife because there are no more guns. Cite a million other reason that do happen and can happen.

    But you have to convince me that it is even possible for our government to order the genocide of our own people which you will never do. That analogy again is just an alarmists way of expressing something that won't happen here.
    You are probably right. But I'm willing to bet that the people listed in the examples would never have believed their government would have them exterminated either. It's a fool's game to ignore history under the assumption "it won't happen here". I agree that odds are against it, but I believe whole-heartedly if you allow the government to disarm us as a people, the results will be bad. It's hard to compare societies, especially societies from different time periods. Nothing is guaranteed. Nobody knows would we be like England without guns now, or would we be like Germany with gun control during Hitler's time frame.

  13. #43
    New Member Array chuckb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steffen View Post
    In a way you are right, but you are taking it to a completely different level that is not part of this reality. If you really think that America has turned into Nazi Germany, then please explain further because I would like to know.
    Not part of this reality??? Its IS reality. It's history.

    My point is that morality has gotten lost before. To say morality will always triumph is America because we are inherently morally superior people is a pipe dream. And history has already proved this false.

    The mere fact that an entire race of people's rights were revoked by executive order, of our president, and the US Army held them captive in concentration camps for breaking NO LAW. tells you all you need to know. Forget the future and saying, it won't happen here. IT ALREADY DID!!!!!! and i'd suggest to you there's no reason it wont happen again.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by d2jlking View Post
    You are probably right. But I'm willing to bet that the people listed in the examples would never have believed their government would have them exterminated either. It's a fool's game to ignore history under the assumption "it won't happen here". I agree that odds are against it, but I believe whole-heartedly if you allow the government to disarm us as a people, the results will be bad. It's hard to compare societies, especially societies from different time periods. Nothing is guaranteed. Nobody knows would we be like England without guns now, or would we be like Germany with gun control during Hitler's time frame.
    I can't speak for suntzu, but I disagree with the sentance in bold. It is a fool's game to say that "it will happen here just like it has before." The discussion about handguns/assault rifles/magazine capacity/background checks is practically irrelevant in the grand scheme of things... There are weapons out there in the hands of government that can end the world as we know it, so we are already disarmed.

    I personally beleive it is important to fight for the remaining rights that we have, but I'm not oblivious to the fact that my efforts are more or less insignificant.
    The problem with gun control is that drugs are already illegal.

  15. #45
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steffen View Post
    I can't speak for suntzu, but I disagree with the sentance in bold. It is a fool's game to say that "it will happen here just like it has before." The discussion about handguns/assault rifles/magazine capacity/background checks is practically irrelevant in the grand scheme of things... There are weapons out there in the hands of government that can end the world as we know it, so we are already disarmed.

    I personally beleive it is important to fight for the remaining rights that we have, but I'm not oblivious to the fact that my efforts are more or less insignificant.
    Of course Suntzu is probably right. You however, are not. How exactly is being mindful of history and trying to learn from the mistakes of previous generations a fool's game? As far as AWB, and other gun restriction laws, it seems most on the side of the 2nd Ammendment believe gun law enactment can be a slippery slope that leads to the outlawing of all guns to the private citizen. So preventing a gun ban is hardly irrelevant if the slippery slope theory is true. In addition, just because the government possesses weapons that could "end the world" does not mean that we are disarmed as a people. It wouldn't make much sense for a government to use nuclear weapons on it's own people. Just as Suntzu said he doesn't believe genocide perpetrated by Americans against Americans will happen, I do not believe our government will nuke it's own country. So IMO we are NOT disarmed. Imagine the manpower, and dedicated will, that would be required of a government to go door to door in a country of 350 million people to confiscate guns. The truth is, this country was founded by armed rebellion. The colonial Americans stood up to the greatest and most powerful military force in the world. They won. Times have changed, but the premise is the same. I believe in the American spirit, and I believe Americans are the greatest most resilient people on the face of the Earth. When we are tested, we respond.

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