So , what "other" guns may you lose if the ban passed.....

I believe that if Feinstein's bill sees the light of day and passes, it will be shot down as unconstitutional. Look USA vs Miller. Mr Miller was arrested for possessing and transporting a sawed-off shotgun. The courts originally dismissed the charges, but an appeal reinstated them. It went to the Supreme Court.

"The U.S Government appealed the decision and on March 30, 1939, the U.S. Supreme Court heard the case. Attorneys for the United States argued four points:
1- The NFA is intended as a revenue-collecting measure and therefore within the authority of the Department of the Treasury.
2- The defendants transported the shotgun from Oklahoma to Arkansas, and therefore used it in interstate commerce.
3- The Second Amendment protects only the ownership of military-type weapons appropriate for use in an organized militia.
4- The "double barrel 12-gauge Stevens shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches in length, bearing identification number 76230" was never used in any militia organization.

Neither the defendants nor their legal counsel appeared at the Supreme Court. A lack of financial support and procedural irregularities prevented counsel from traveling.[3]Miller was found shot to death in April, before the decision was rendered.[4]"

See specially item 3 of the governments position. Read more here
United States v. Miller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US vs Miller decision was also quoted during the Heller case.

That the bill is unconstitutional is my layman opinion after reading the Miller case. But I am not an attorney, so who knows.

Charles, they may, or may not, know who you are or who I am based on posting on these forums. That's not the issue. Saying that you're going to stand and fight them is giving them intel- something we called OpSec in the Marine Corps. You don't publish your intentions to your enemy. That just allows them to ensure they are prepared.

If you think that you can fend off a team of highly trained operators that come to take your weapons you are mistaken. You may make them pay a price for their actions. If you're with enough friends and like minded individuals you may make CNN's headlines for a while. But in the end you will lose... they will be in possession of your firearms. I'm not saying that to dissuade anyone or try to change minds, just making a blunt statement of fact. If you're willing to pay the price to resist that's fine. I just do not believe that there are nearly as many people that will go along with you as you want to believe.

If it is a "well known fact that the police and military are loathe to attempt such an action because of the inherent danger involved" I have a simple question. How is it that I can be a veteran of our military and a current law enforcement officer and have never heard a single person in uniform mention being loathe to attempt the act? (Or excited or lukewarm, or any other condition for that matter.) The people I work with don't spend their time on gun forums, they aren't getting all hot and bothered by the subject. In honesty, there's no danger of them coming for a guns in the near term, so it isn't on the radar of people that don't read these forums or have the fear that is shown in these posts. If, in the future, such an action becomes more likely then there will be talk and there will be people on both sides of the issue. Most probably wouldn't like what they were told to do but there would be plenty that followed through with their instructions.

I am not posting to argue for or against doing what you, or anyone else, feels they need to do. I'm not saying what my decision would be and other than my family and a few close friends nobody needs to know what I would do if a squad of gun grabbers came knocking on my door. I'm just trying to get a point across that this isn't going to be some reenactment of the Battle of Trenton and that in the end if they pick your house their numbers, supply lines, equipment (and training for some) will win against the most well intentioned opposition. There could be exceptions, but I know I don't have a platoon of my Marines here in the house ready to go to war alongside me so I need to be prepared for the consequences of my actions.

I no longer make predictions because I thought that in the end, the majority of people in the United States had the best interest of the country at heart, not just their own, selfish desires. Then Nov. 6th happened.
I'm so disheartened and disillusioned that I believe anything is possible now.

A total ban on guns someday, maybe in the near future...why not? When the media is backing the politicians who can make this happen, who can twist and turn a phrase to make it anything they want to make it, cause mass hysteria by appealing to emotions... then why would a ban on guns be so impossible?

You may be surprised to know what I have at my disposal. I come from a long line of military men and women.
Family in the DoD, CIA and various three letter agencies. I will know what is going to happen probably before you do.
I am not worried about giving the enemy my secrets. They are well known to many, just as some of theirs are known to me and mine.
One well armed man, determined in his cause, can be worth a platoon of moderately trained kids. It will be kids who are forced to go door to door and they will not be nearly as dedicated to the cause as one man defending his freedoms and family are.
You may also be surprised at how high up the food chain the resistance against the government goes.
I'm glad you think that people like me number so few. It will come as a surprise then should you ever be tasked with disarming the public.
I am also very Leary when a police officer tells me that it won't happen. You might very well be someone who is tasked with disarming the populace. How would you feel if such an order was issued? Do follow along? Do you refuse? Do you leave your post to be with your family?
As for me, I am an old man. I have no children to worry over me and a wife who knows exactly how I feel on this issue.
In the end, I hope and pray that it never comes down to another civil war or any war during my time. I am not fearful though that I may have to defend my position. You are wrong on one thing though. In today's age of twitter, Facebook and various other forms of faster than crazy speeds, when and IF they government starts a door to door confiscation act, it will be known by millions within mere moments.
There will be no lag and information will travel faster than the gun grabbers could imagine. Unless they post a man on every porch and time it to the second, there will be no way it won't make the feeds.
Anyway, I've had enough for now. Lets all hope things never come to that, that there will be time and opportunity to work things through. That there will be no need for anything to come to pass and we won't have worry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeanlouise

I no longer make predictions because I thought that in the end, the majority of people in the United States had the best interest of the country at heart, not just their own, selfish desires. Then Nov. 6th happened.
I'm so disheartened and disillusioned that I believe anything is possible now.

A total ban on guns someday, maybe in the near future...why not? When the media is backing the politicians who can make this happen, who can twist and turn a phrase to make it anything they want to make it, cause mass hysteria by appealing to emotions... then why would a ban on guns be so impossible?

---

It's as simple as this...
Attachment 66166

This WAS NOT another what about the ban thread.... whether it will happen, won't happen, what if it does thread.

It was an attempt to get some "discussion" about what guns under those definitions would be included. I think a lot of people don't think it will apply to them.... because they don't own an Assault Rifle...... but it's not about "Assault Rifles" ..... it is way beyond that ..... way way way beyond that. As one example, I tried to point out the 1911 was a gun "designed for the military".... which is one of the terms Feinstien is using now, and is saying it WILL apply to handguns.

I think if everyone realizes that, they will also realize 1) this is a major gun grab attempt, and 2) there is likely NO-ONE that wouldn't be affected.

Ah well... I tried.

I will say this, if you think you will comply with a registry, you might as well sell your guns now and recoup some of your investment. Registry will lead to confiscation.

That's what I plan to do.
:blink:

Charles I'm going to just leave most of your post unaddressed other than to say that I assure you that you're not the only one that knows people in some high places. That and I think you're sadly mistaken as the the capabilities of the "kids" and their level of training.

The one thing I do want to address is your question about what would I do if I was tasked with disarming the public. There's no question what I, and just about everyone I work with would do. We would stand and leave the room and ignore the directive. If it was pushed I would resign and prepare for what was to come. But I would have known that was coming because there is a 0% chance that my superiors would issue the order. The first clue would be the fact that they were gone and someone else was telling us to do something.

What guns would be banned?.......eventually almost everything.

They'll start with magazines of a certain capacity....looks like today the magic number is ten. When that doesn't work to stop gun crime (Which will INCREASE, as it does everywhere gun bans have been tried!), they will lower that number to probably three. Again another 'magic' number that isn't based on any facts....just emotionally based. Even a lot of gun owners will go along with this....They'll say "I don't have any 'scary looking ones" & 'I don't understand why anybody needs them for hunting.'..."

At first the anti-gunners will say...'You can keep your hunting guns.'. Just remember, these are the same people who want to ban hunting as well.

When it comes to firearms, they'll begin with the 'scary looking' & 'military looking' firearms. When that doesn't stop gun crime, they'll move on to any multi-shot firearms. That will even include tube fed rifles like you grandfathers Winchesters & your 'high-powered sniper rifles'...like you Remington 700 or Ruger 77.

One big first step will be registration....& we all know what follows that. The antis know that registration doesn't stop crime. It just leads to knowing who owns firearms, so you can go round them up.

If it does come to confiscation, most will turn them in. A few will fight & probably die. Confiscation will be easier to do because we aren't geographically divided like the country was during the Civil War. Gun owners are mixed in all over & aren't organized to defend against government forces. The ones that fight will be labeled as nut-jobs by the media & the government.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are places in this country where the antis will have a harder time disarming the public. There are other places where LEOs won't comply as well. The Federal government will force the jurisdictions that resist by with holding federal dollars until they comply.

If this first attempt in the coming days by the antis is successful, I'm afraid its game over. They won't stop & the majority of people are now willing to let the government provide them with everything. The problem with that is eventually you run out of people who actually produce in this country & the whole thing collapses.

The anti-gunners aren't concerned with deaths in relation to guns. If they were concerned about deaths, they would be focusing on the LEADING CAUSES OF DEATHS:

Number of deaths for leading causes of death (2009)

Heart disease: 599,413
Cancer: 567,628
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
Diabetes: 68,705
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,900

This is not about guns...it's about control!

Most of the first 4 should fit in with the last because people put themselves in that situation.

But really, I am surprised Nephritis is that high on the list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echo_Four

Charles I'm going to just leave most of your post unaddressed other than to say that I assure you that you're not the only one that knows people in some high places. That and I think you're sadly mistaken as the the capabilities of the "kids" and their level of training.

The one thing I do want to address is your question about what would I do if I was tasked with disarming the public. There's no question what I, and just about everyone I work with would do. We would stand and leave the room and ignore the directive. If it was pushed I would resign and prepare for what was to come. But I would have known that was coming because there is a 0% chance that my superiors would issue the order. The first clue would be the fact that they were gone and someone else was telling us to do something.

---

True, the level of training is far better than I described. I owe an apology for that remark. The young men an woman in uniform are doing a fantastic job in some very harsh locations around the world and they are true warriors.
As for your walking away from it all if ordered to go and confiscate civilian arms, I applaud that. There are Legion's of others who feel the same way. Some in the private sector and some in the military.

"As for me, I am an old man. I have no children to worry over me and a wife who knows exactly how I feel on this issue.
In the end, I hope and pray that it never comes down to another civil war or any war during my time. I am not fearful though that I may have to defend my position. You are wrong on one thing though. In today's age of twitter, Facebook and various other forms of faster than crazy speeds, when and IF they government starts a door to door confiscation act, it will be known by millions within mere moments."

Amen to that! I'm another one, and there are one heluva lot of us who feel the same way.

I went searching for some 45 ACP the other day, and found not only ammo at nearly double what it was in October, but also shelves that were chock-full then, bare last week. I came home and began searching the internet for reloading gear and other supplies, and found, over and over again at most of the gun and shooting supply houses: "OUT OF STOCK, NO BACK-ORDER ALLOWED". This is heartening to me, knowing that there are so many who apparently see, and are preparing for the danger that is coming.

And, Echo_Four, I'm glad to hear that you would decline to engage, although I must disagree with you on much that you've said, especially when you say that there is no comparison between 1774/5/6, etc. Yes, there are differences, but the heart of the situations are the same. I/WE Americans have certain God given Rights (Not rights, as interpreted by the Liberal Supreme Court) that shall not be taken away from us! You are my Brother, but I think you need to review our American and Marine Corps History. Chesty did not throw up his hands when surrounded by the enemy at Chosin; Carlos Hathcock did not disbelieve his ability to complete his mission when the VC were all but tripping over him in an open field; the men who boldly signed the Declaration of Independence which they sent to the ruler of the then strongest military nation in the world, didn't cringe at the thought of being easily found in the crowd. They did it then... We will do it now, if need be.

I also do not have: "...a platoon of my Marines here in the house ready to go to war alongside me so I need to be prepared for the consequences of my actions." I am prepared for the consequences of my actions, be what they may, and I'll be damned if I wouldn't truly die on my feet than live on my knees. It's not good to mess with old men, especially old men who are Marines. We have very little to lose.

"As for me, I am an old man. I have no children to worry over me and a wife who knows exactly how I feel on this issue.
In the end, I hope and pray that it never comes down to another civil war or any war during my time. I am not fearful though that I may have to defend my position. You are wrong on one thing though. In today's age of twitter, Facebook and various other forms of faster than crazy speeds, when and IF they government starts a door to door confiscation act, it will be known by millions within mere moments."

Amen to that! I'm another one, and there are one heluva lot of us who feel the same way.

I went searching for some 45 ACP the other day, and found not only ammo at nearly double what it was in October, but also shelves that were chock-full then, bare last week. I came home and began searching the internet for reloading gear and other supplies, and found, over and over again at most of the gun and shooting supply houses: "OUT OF STOCK, NO BACK-ORDER ALLOWED". This is heartening to me, knowing that there are so many who apparently see, and are preparing for the danger that is coming.

And, Echo_Four, I'm glad to hear that you would decline to engage, although I must disagree with you on much that you've said, especially when you say that there is no comparison between 1774/5/6, etc. Yes, there are differences, but the heart of the situations are the same. I/WE Americans have certain God given Rights (Not rights, as interpreted by the Liberal Supreme Court) that shall not be taken away from us! You are my Brother, but I think you need to review our American and Marine Corps History. Chesty did not throw up his hands when surrounded by the enemy at Chosin; Carlos Hathcock did not disbelieve his ability to complete his mission when the VC were all but tripping over him in an open field; the men who boldly signed the Declaration of Independence which they sent to the ruler of the then strongest military nation in the world, didn't cringe at the thought of being easily found in the crowd. They did it then... We will do it now, if need be.

I also do not have: "...a platoon of my Marines here in the house ready to go to war alongside me so I need to be prepared for the consequences of my actions." I am prepared for the consequences of my actions, be what they may, and I'll be damned if I wouldn't truly die on my feet than live on my knees.

It's not good to mess with old men, especially old men who are Marines. We have very little to lose.

I guess I don't have any guns and if I did I am not sure what I would make public so as it stands I don't have any and your not required to own one to belong to the NRA or the 2A foundation and to defend yourself and family if a threat presents it self, so after that I'll take the 5th.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OldCorps

And, Echo_Four, I'm glad to hear that you would decline to engage, although I must disagree with you on much that you've said, especially when you say that there is no comparison between 1774/5/6, etc. Yes, there are differences, but the heart of the situations are the same. I/WE Americans have certain God given Rights (Not rights, as interpreted by the Liberal Supreme Court) that shall not be taken away from us!

---

Old Corps I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, we have rights endowed by our Creator that cannot be taken away. We have further rights outlined in our Constitution. And I am not even taking into question that there are men with the bravery and willingness to stand and fight the strongest military in the world. Where things differ between now and 1776 is in the way that willingness can be applied. There is no organization. We do not have a "Continental Congress" that represents us in opposition to those that would strip us of our rights. Our Congress is the problem in this case. We do not have a General Washington that everyone would trust to lead our militia in the fight against an oppressive government. In addition i 1776 a musket was a musket. In 2013 I can have all the AR rifles in the world and a pike of pistols a mile deep and that won't help much against a main battle tank and 3 LAVs full of Marines.

I didn't start saying these things in an effort to tell people to just give up. I said it because so many people seem to think that there's no question that there will be an uprising and that the citizens will easily win out in the end. We have to remember that we're outgunned, outmanned, and will be painted as psychopaths by the media that is quite adept at propaganda. If one decides to fight it is important to understand the situation you're getting yourself into. There's a better than average chance that if you decide to resist that you won't be around to see how things play out in the end. It is better to prepare for that possibility now than to be surprised that the vast majority of Americans grumble and complain while complying leaving you feeling very alone.