Proper grip?

This is a discussion on Proper grip? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Well, here is either a silly question, or a really good question, and I did a quick search, but didn't come up with what I ...

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Thread: Proper grip?

  1. #1
    Member Array Crexrun's Avatar
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    Proper grip?

    Well, here is either a silly question, or a really good question, and I did a quick search, but didn't come up with what I was looking for.. .so here goes!

    I have done a lot of shooting in my life, and have made some very fine shots, especially 10 meter stuff with .177 target pellet guns, both pistols and rifles, so I know the mechanics of shooting well with a long gun, but I sure need work on shooting pistols. :(

    I have a Walther P22, and a newly acquired Ruger P95 DC, and at 7 yards, I can keep them both in a 2" circle pretty easy, seated on the ground at the farm, shooting at paper targets with a dirt backstop. I get back to 15 yards, they open up a bit, and I dont' have the greatest eyesight in the world, and the three dot sights on my pistols are far from precise for target shooting, but still.... by the time I get to 25 yards, I'm shooting pie plate sized groups, and I seem to throw them, some to the right, (I'm right handed), sometimes 6" high, but in any case, not great by any standards.

    With a rifle, I can take head shots on sparrows and such at 75+ yards with relative ease, and have for years, and I thought I could take my P22 and go plink some squirrels and such, but I definitely need more practice.

    Anyway, long story short, is there a "proper" grip for an Auto pistol? Thumbs up, down, locked grip, elbow straight back, arm locked, left pointer finger on front of trigger guard, What? I haven't stuck 1000's of roudns through them, but I want to get it figured out before I spend a ton on money on ammo and then find out I had a fundamental mistake.

    I know the recoil has a drastic effect on where I hit, and I try to combat that with different holds, but especially when I shoot the +Ps in the P95, I can't keep my finger on the front of the trigger guard, and I've got a pretty strong grip. I am a pretty small guy though, 5'9" 155, farmboy athletic type. Anyway, sorry for the long post, any suggestion would be appreciated. I downloaded an FBI training manual for shooting the S&W 10mm that was a few years old, it was pretty informative, but I dont' know if it helped... Well, thanks everyone, Crexrun
    Walther P22, Velocitors, on my side. Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps, bedside. Mossberg 500, full of steel shot behind the door. And a Princeton Tec Genesis 3 watt led and a Gerber Ridge knife! Don't steal MY Coors Light!

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  3. #2
    Member Array Crexrun's Avatar
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    nobody else has this problem? Or knows what to do about it?
    Walther P22, Velocitors, on my side. Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps, bedside. Mossberg 500, full of steel shot behind the door. And a Princeton Tec Genesis 3 watt led and a Gerber Ridge knife! Don't steal MY Coors Light!

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    It sounds like you are a pretty good shot. How are you shooting at 25 yards ie braced, standing unsupported etc... I think you mainly need practice. For my Taurus 92 a pie plate at 25 yards standing is good for me. With my Ruger Gov't MkII with a 10" barrel I expect more accuracy. Have you bench shot these supported to see what they are capable of?

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    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Diagnosing a shooting grip on line is like trying to give a haircut over the phone.

    First off, get a grip on the gun with your strong hand. Don't sqeeze the grip. Place your support hand on the pistol with the heel of your palm filling the void where your (strong hand) fingers wrap around the front strap and the heel of you hand stops. Place your support thumb on the frame (Just a reminder, keep your trigger finger out of the trigger guard and on the frame). Your shooting thumb rests on the support thumb.

    At this point, if you tip the muzzle of the gun up so that you are looking at the top of the slide, look where your trigger finger tip is in relation to your support thumb. They should be even or very close.

    Your support fingers should fit in the "groves" between the fingers of your shooting hand.

    Apply pressure to the pistol with your support hand. Your shooting hand should only hold the gun and pull the trigger.

    I'll try to get some pictures up this evening if the kids co-operate and go to bed on time. If not I'll get some up ASAP.

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    Member Array Crexrun's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply. No, it's not offhand, I think I'd be happy with a pie plate size at 25 yds with these pistols offhand too, it's pretty informal out back behind the barn so to speak, so rests usually consist of whatever distance you want happens to be parked there! There's a few cars out back, and I usually end up shooting off of the roof or hood of one of these, far from ideal conditions.

    I think you're right, I just need to put more rounds through them, as long as I'm not screwing anything major up I guess. I really *don't like* the sights on these guns for trying to make a nice group, but obviously, 25 yard dots are not their forte'.

    I can rapid fire the P95, or shoot quick 3 shot groups, both one and two handed, and keep them around 3-4" groups at around 7 yards, I'm plenty happy with that, for a defensive type shooting. I just really like to know what my guns do at longer distances.

    I had a newer Hi Point 9mm compact, and I got rid of it because there were mulitple things I didn't care for about it, but anyway, I stuck a 16x24" steel plate out at about 120 yards in front of my backstop. With FMJs and Speer 124 +ps, I could hit that plate about 7 out of 10 times. I was quite happy with that, if somebody was shooting at me from that distance, and I had to shoot back, I might not hit em, but I'd sure make them think twice.

    Well, this is a good reason to shoot more, and I need to build a better bench so I can get repeatable results. Thanks, Crexrun
    Walther P22, Velocitors, on my side. Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps, bedside. Mossberg 500, full of steel shot behind the door. And a Princeton Tec Genesis 3 watt led and a Gerber Ridge knife! Don't steal MY Coors Light!

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    Member Array Crexrun's Avatar
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    Thanks Purple, that sounds basically like what I've been doing, but I haven't been interlocking my fingers, The P22 is too small for that I think, but I can certainly give it a whirl on the Ruger. Thanks a lot, Crexrun
    Walther P22, Velocitors, on my side. Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps, bedside. Mossberg 500, full of steel shot behind the door. And a Princeton Tec Genesis 3 watt led and a Gerber Ridge knife! Don't steal MY Coors Light!

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    I can't keep my finger on the front of the trigger guard,
    IMO do NOT use that hold!! It can pull the gun to the left even tho it might seem to be a more stable hold.

    Wrap the weak hand forefinger over the strong hand middle finger - and make the grip when two handed an interlocking, mutually supportive hold - and if recoil is any problem re gun control - make the initial grip towards ''white knuckle'' but then back off so no trembling shakes!!! ''Strong and firm''

    Thumbs are open to two options - I still choose an ''X'' locked position tho very advanced shooters will promote and favor parallel thumbs. Stability and control are vital - while at the same time training your trigger finger to work in as near to isolation as possible.

    If you can shoot rifle as well as you say then you'll know the importance of trigger use and release. With a handgun I consider you should feel as with rifle - that when the shot breaks it registers as ''oh it went'' after the increased pressure - it is tho very easy with handguns to snatch trigger. Try and use pad of trigger finger too if possible.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    pax
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    Follow the link in my sig to my website, and look up the articles titled "Get a Grip" and "Stance" -- some pictures & discussion there. I'll keep an eye on this thread in case you have any questions after reading the site.

    pax
    Kathy Jackson
    My website: Cornered Cat

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    +1 to everything P95 said, the only thing I would add is that at longer ranges I tend to straighten my right arm (I'm right handed) and sight down my arm, with my chin at my elbow joint. I don't think that this is proper form but it's how I do it (I also shut my left eye, which is a no no) when I am taking careful aim. With all that said these are combat sights and you should expect to get combat results. Just keep putting more rounds down range I practice at 7 yards are less drawing and snap firing so my muscles remeber how to aim, anything farther than that I take my time or run away
    Last edited by pgrass101; October 23rd, 2006 at 10:26 PM.

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    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    As promised...

    The kids went down easy tonight so I was able to get these pics.

    Pic 1 shows getting the initial grip:


    Pic 2 "filling the void":


    Pic 3 Wrapping the fingers of the support hand:


    Pic 4 and 5 Two hand grip complete:



    Pic 6 Top view. Note Trigger finger and support thumb are almost even with each other.

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    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    In order to keep from eating up all of the bandwidth in one post I decided to break in to two.

    The first series of pictures there show a fullsize gun, but to show that it can be done with a smaller frame gun I took these too.

    Enjoy:

    This is an AMT .380 (smallest thing I have). Roughly 3-3/4" tall by 5" long by 1" wide. The grip is 1-3/4" front to rear.




    You might notice that the support thumb is bent more with this gun than the other. Due to its diminuative size, mirroring the first grip is difficult and uncomfortable (for me). This grip gives me much more controll over the weapon and rapid follow up shots is very easy.



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    Member Array Crexrun's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies everyone, and I appreciate the pics. I think I'm fairly close on my grip, other than I have been trying to use my support index finger on the trigger guard, and it works pretty well on the smaller P22, but not on the larger P95, especially with the +p rounds.

    Bottom line, I just need to get more rounds through the guns! I'll try to do some shooting one of these nights and let you know how it turns out. THanks!



    Oh yeah, in that FBI training manual I downloaded, they recommend keeping the trigger depressed after the shot until the sights come back in line, and then releasing it forward just enough to reset, (SA of course) and then squeezing off the next shot. Anyone use this technique, or is this common? It seems to work very well on my P22, seems to come back to point quicker. Thanks again, Crexrun
    Walther P22, Velocitors, on my side. Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps, bedside. Mossberg 500, full of steel shot behind the door. And a Princeton Tec Genesis 3 watt led and a Gerber Ridge knife! Don't steal MY Coors Light!

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    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    REgarding the FBI thing, if I am sooting for accuracy, then yes. For combat practice, in short, no. I do something a little different.

    The grip is the same for both styles, but trigger management is different.

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    I tried the thumbs hold as I saw proposed on the sister site. It was awkward; the gun was too close to my face; couldn't see the sights clearly. Learn one of the extended arm methods [ one or two handed. Thumbs fwd for an auto weak thumb over the shooting hand for a revolver so you can pull the hammer back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by purple88yj View Post
    The kids went down easy tonight so I was able to get these pics.

    Pic 1 shows getting the initial grip:


    Pic 2 "filling the void":


    Pic 3 Wrapping the fingers of the support hand:


    Pic 4 and 5 Two hand grip complete:



    Pic 6 Top view. Note Trigger finger and support thumb are almost even with each other.
    good post

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