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Who needs a gun in a church?

2K views 26 replies 24 participants last post by  mexican_ninja 
#1 ·
Article from VA-Alert Newsletter:

26. Who needs a gun in a church?
****************************************************

How about if a madman intent on murder comes in? Thanks to Bruce
Bremer for the link:

Man ignites fires inside crowded church on Lancaster Drive NE
Wednesday night; 3 injured

He is arrested after churchgoers tackle him, put out flames

DAN BENDER
Statesman Journal

October 26, 2006

A man entered the Peoples Church on Lancaster Drive during a
Wednesday evening worship service and used a burning liquid to set
fires in the crowded sanctuary, officials and witnesses said.

One woman, identified by a church pastor as Arlene Anderson,
reportedly was taken to the hospital by her husband for medical
attention to burns on her back and neck. Another worshipper sustained
burns on her clothing but was not taken to a hospital.

"We were just singing and praying, and the next thing you know, two
people were on fire," said Lissa Gordon, 25, of Salem.

Witnesses said the liquid, possibly gasoline, was igniting as it came
out of a can that the man was holding. It was not clear how the man
ignited the liquid.

Deputy Kevin Rau, a spokesman for the Marion County Sheriff's Office,
said one man was in custody. He was not immediately identified.

Rau said the man arrived at the church at 4500 Lancaster Drive NE in
a taxi cab and threatened the cab driver with a knife. Rau said the
Salem-Keizer Yellow cab driver and the man wrestled for the knife.
During the struggle, the cab driver suffered a minor injury to his
neck.

Sam Miller, an assistant to the pastor who was attending the 7 p.m.
service, said the church's sanctuary was packed with several hundred
people when the man entered about 7:15 p.m. The man reportedly came
through a front door at the church and into the sanctuary through a
side door.

Miller, who also is a police chaplain, said the man then began
throwing the burning liquid onto pews, people and carpeting.

"He just poured this gasoline, or whatever it was, and as it was
coming out of the can he ignited it. He kind of sprayed it on people"

Worshippers said the incident happened quickly.

"When I jumped up and turned around, there were already a dozen
places on fire by the time I saw it," said Bill Gallaher, a church
staff member.

Miller said church members tackled the man and were able to get him
out of the church. Other churchgoers were able to put out the flames
using fire extinguishers or by beating down the flames with clothing
or even their hands.

"They were putting it out any way they could," Miller said. "One lady
did the stop, drop and roll method."

The fire was out before crews from Marion County Fire District One
arrived. Miller estimated that six pews and some carpeting were
damaged, but he could not estimate what amount of damage the smoke
caused.

"There was a good amount of excitement," Miller said. "People were in
a rush. People were expressing concern for one another."

Miller said the man spoke incoherently during the incident. He
described the man as OK physically after he was tackled but
emotionally disoriented.

"We're going to move forward," Miller said. "The best thing for him
is to find Jesus Christ as his Savior."

About 400 to 500 people were in the building at the time, Gallaher
said. Children were in a separate building at the time of the
incident, he said.

A Salem-Keizer Yellow Cab remained in the church's parking lot,
cordoned off by police tape. The taxi was reportedly still in gear
when the suspect threatened the driver, and the car rolled to the
side of the parking lot.

Many churchgoers inside the sanctuary were being put on local transit
buses to be transported to a Marion County facility to be interviewed
by officials, Rau said. People leaving the scene in cars were asked
to stay for questioning.

A Marion County Mobile Command center was set up in front of the
church's main entrance. At least five fire trucks from Salem Fire and
Marion County remained on the scene around 9 p.m.

Salem police also responded to the scene, although the church is
outside Salem city limits.
 
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#2 ·
who needs a gun in church? The people at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Ft. Worth (or maybe Dallas...) back in '99 or 2000 might have found one usefull. IIRC, one or two people were killed when a gunman walked in and opened fire.
 
#5 ·
Thanks, I'll second this one... It was actually September 15, 1999 and you are correct, it is in Ft. Worth. Seven people were killed and seven injured not including the shooter (Larry Ashbrook).
 
#3 ·
Me....

no actually, the ushers, the deacons, the pastor, and the little old lady who always sits in the third row.

there have been enough instances of people coming into churches and commiting violent crimes there, that the church ceases to be a "safe sanctuary" for anyone.

just a thought.....

:congrats:
 
#6 ·
The fact is many states make churches off limits in their base legislation. All this does is create "massacre safe" zones. There was a rash (3-4) incidences where some guy goes to his ex wife/girl friends church to "take care of business". Why. Well state law assured him there would be no one there to interfere; I do not believe it was mere coincidence they all just decided to do it in a church.

When I was married the first time back in Indiana (CCW since 1934) the preacher knew I had a CCW and usually carried. There were a couple ladies that left abusive relationships at about the same time in the congregation and he came up to me one day after the service and asked if I would mind carrying during services “just incase”. He got a funny look on his face when I told him I always did.:image035:
 
#19 ·
The fact is many states make churches off limits in their base legislation. All this does is create "massacre safe" zones. There was a rash (3-4) incidences where some guy goes to his ex wife/girl friends church to "take care of business". Why. Well state law assured him there would be no one there to interfere; I do not believe it was mere coincidence they all just decided to do it in a church.
I think that a large part of the problem is that many many people actually believe that for some reason, God won't let anything bad happen in a church. The very idea is preposterous; they have to close their awareness to the fact that violence already has happened in churches. So it's doublethink, and doublethink alone, that leads anyone to feel "safe" in a church just because it's a church.

Look at the middle east! If anyone does something to a muslim's mosque, it's war. He won't let it rest. But we also notice that muslims are burning and destroying other muslims' mosques. It's just proof that religious sites are NOT sacred to EVILDOERS.
 
#7 ·
Name some places where it would be impossible for an idiot to walk in and start killing people at random.

Hmmmm... I must be tired, I can't think of any right now.

Anyway, those are the places where I don't feel that I 'need' a firearm. You know, places like banks (no, not there...), schools (nope, not there), amusement parks (oops, not there either...), national parks (not!), airplanes (big no)... Ok, I really can't think of any right now.

'The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed'

Church isn't on that list either.
 
#8 ·
Mr. Kimber...

attends church with me regularly...
If, for some reason, he doesn't feel like going...then Mr. Glock goes along with me...

Stay alert...stay safe!

ret
 
#10 ·
I'm in church, I'm carrying. Just like everywhere else I go.
The only exceptions forced upon me in this State of New Hampshire is Federal Property or State, County or Local Courthouses.
Otherwise, I'm carrying. Period.
 
#11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
who needs a gun in church? The people at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Ft. Worth (or maybe Dallas...) back in '99 or 2000 might have found one usefull. IIRC, one or two people were killed when a gunman walked in and opened fire.

Thanks, I'll second this one... It was actually September 15, 1999 and you are correct, it is in Ft. Worth. Seven people were killed and seven injured not including the shooter (Larry Ashbrook).


Ill third that. I lost a childhood friend that day in that church.
 
#12 ·
I know that the title question is rhetorical, but the very question is part of the problem. Who needs the right of Free Assembly? Who needs the right of no unlawful search and seizure? Or the right of refusal of self-incrimination?

We don't NEED to carry in most of the places (overwhelmingly) that any of us carry. But that's not the point.

Preaching to the choir is my favorite. :smile:

OT - I'm so glad I found this forum.
 
#13 ·
Not only is a gun needed in the church but you have to make the trip to and from the church with often some other in route travel and/or stops. If you need a gun at other times, this is an 'Other Time." If you are uncomfortable about carrying in church, you could leave your gun in your car while you are in church but church parking lots are prime targets for car burglars.
 
#21 ·
I wish this concept that you are not safe just because you are in a church would rub off on a few churches here in MN. There is a small, vocal group that thinks they should be able to restrict your rights in any manner they choose regardless of what the law says. I expect the liberal judges we have to side with them too. Needless to say I do not attend any of those churches. Mine just hasn't said anything, but I am sure they don't approve.
 
#23 ·
I always carry in church. I teach Sunday School and play bass/guitar in the worship team (also a seminary student). It's a pain having to have to dress really well around it, but every time I think about leaving "plan B" at home I feel an honest conviction...if I leave it home and something happens today, I will have already decided not to do anything about it.

No clue how the pastors & elders would feel about it. I suppose I'll find out if, God forbid, my weapon ever clears the holster on church property.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Who needs a gun in a church?
Everyone who can breathe and walk upright. For situations otherwise beyond our control. For the safety of our families. For all of the reasons we, here, appreciate.
 
#25 ·
I'll answer this the same way I answered my wife the other day as I was getting dressed for a funeral.

Her "will you need your gun at the funeral?" (by that she meant did I plan to take it.)

Me, "I certainly hope not, but I am going to take it anyway."
I feel the same way about church. I have delivered many messages, armed. I will continue to do so.
 
#26 ·
Occassionally during church there's a dull "clunk" when Mr. Kimber meets the hard wood back of the pew when this congregant shifts position in the seat.

For you faithful, have you seen yourself more than just prepared to protect yourself and immediate family at church? I recall the first time carrying there when I was in the pastor's office with him and praying before the service. I was struck with the idea that I had a duty to protect him and the congregation in the event the Lord in His infinite wisdom allowed some BG to harrass the flock:sheep: :sheep: :sheep: , even to be willing to lay down my life for them, my friends. Perhaps that is even what Peter felt in his day.
 
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