Speaking of a shotgun for HD and Hunting, here's an interesting discovery!

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    Speaking of a shotgun for HD and Hunting, here's an interesting discovery!

    Well, it's an interesting discovery for me at least.

    I waffled a bit on which forum this was best suited for; it would probably fit in a couple of forums, but I decided general would be as good as any.

    I know some of you prefer slugs for SD, and I'm evaluating slugs for a tenative, upcoming feral hog hunt. I want to use a shotgun. A toss up right now between an Benelli M4 and M2 - not sure how I'm going to decide that yet, but that's another story (and maybe post).

    I've looked at a lot of hog hunting videos including handgun, rifle, shotgun, and bow, plus I talked to a buddy in TX that does a looooooot of hog hunting. One thing that jumped out at me is that it seems the shot that stops a hog in his tracks, is a shot through the front shoulder. Apparently a hit there destroys the shoulder so it loses structural support and can't run, the shot seems to sometimes destroy the other shoulder too and very likely terminally wounds the heart and lungs.

    With all that in mind, I'm thinking, what about all those tests, reports, etc. you've seen/heard about the slug being a poor penetrator due to fragmentation? Seems like a slug is a pretty beefy piece of lead, so why does if fragment???

    Turns out that while a rifled slug a pretty beefy projectile, it is also essentially hollow with long skirts and not so much of a solid piece of lead. So, I decided to see for myself and disassembled four shotgun slugs:

    Royal Star 2-3/4", 1-1/8 oz, 1410 fps, 2171 ft-lbs

    Federal Maximum 2-3/4", 1 oz, 1610 fps, 2516 ft-lbs

    Federal Magnum 2-3/4", 1-1/4 oz, 1520 fps, 2803 ft-lbs

    Winchester SuperX 3", 1 oz, 1760 fps, 3006 ft-lbs

    All of those are pretty impressive rounds, but let's look at the slugs themselves:

    From left to right in the order listed above:



    And a cross section of the slugs. There are only three, because the two 1 oz slugs, although one was Winchester and one was Federal, were essentially the same (and I got tired of splitting slugs and polishing them ).



    As you can see, while the 1 oz slug (middle) is a lot of lead, it doesn't have much of a concentrated mass to it. The 1-1/4 oz on the right is considerably more substantial - I like this round.

    The surprise is the Royal Star. These things cost $3.59/5 and notice the slug cross section! There is a substantial central core that extends from the tip to almost the full length of the slug. The domed tip is huge compared to either of the other slugs and it has that long central core backing it, and with 2171 ft-lbs of energy, that looks to me like it would be a real performer. I like the fact that it's a 1-1/8 oz load too.

    One other thing interesting about the Royal Star is the slug base or buffer. You can see it in the above two pics to the left. This polymer thing fits right up in the cavity around the lower central mass.

    Here's a look the slug and polymer base:



    And how it would look in the shell:



    This is a pretty impressive configuration. In the acceleration phase down the barrel, I suspect that form-fit base helps keep the slug from deforming and helps keep it better aligned in the barrel. It's just amazing that a $3.59/5 shell would have such a design.

    I haven't been able to do any testing long range yet, but I have been pretty impressed with the Royal Star's accuracy at 15 - 25 yards.

    Right now, the Star and the Federal Magnums are my front runners. The Fed. Mag. are $6.59/5 as I recall - almost twice as much as the Star. The Fed. Mag. weighs 1/8 oz more, and has more energy, but I don't think it has the ballistic advantage I'm expecting from the Star with that central core design.

    If I can find some pigs when I go, I'll let you know how they do.
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    Concealed means hidden from ordinary observation so as to prevent disclosure or recognition. A deadly weapon is concealed when it is carried on or about the person in such a manner that another person in the ordinary course of events would not be placed on notice that the weapon was being carried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RookWV View Post
    Pics aren't showing up in thread...
    Hmmm, kinda strange, they show up for me; anybody else having a problem seeing the pics???
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    Wow! Great info. Thanks!

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    Pics look good in thread. Interesting. Thanks for the info.
    I shoot with a pistol and a Canon. We must all hang together amigos, or we will all hang separately. NRA life member.

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    Member Array RookWV's Avatar
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    I see them in the post now....now sure what happened there when I first viewed it.
    Concealed means hidden from ordinary observation so as to prevent disclosure or recognition. A deadly weapon is concealed when it is carried on or about the person in such a manner that another person in the ordinary course of events would not be placed on notice that the weapon was being carried.

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    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Enjoyed reading it.

    Here's something I've never understood about using slugs. Maybe you all can enlighten me in this thread, and then I can appreciate the above even more. I've always wondered why a person would use a slug rather than just going for a large bore rifle. Isn't the scatter effect of buckshot (or other shot) the best part of a shotgun? So if you lose that, aren't you losing the reason to really use one? The only answer I can come up with on my own, is that a large bore rifle will produce too much overpenetration. I know my questions are somewhat pedantic and come from my ignorance of the topic, so I want to understand the niche of using a shotgun with a slug.

    Gotta admit though, the idea of that much lead moving as one at 2100 feet a second is pretty enticing.

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    VIP Member Array Taurahe's Avatar
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    Instead of shooting foster slugs....... try a Sabot slug, if your gun has a rifled barrel. I shoot a mossberg 500 20ga with Hornady sxt slugs..... i can put 5 in a pie plate at 175 yds. At hunting ranges they shoot flatter and group significantly tighter than foster style slugs in my gun. And if you are curious how they work........ I dropped a very large doe at 110ish yds last fall, which is a very long shot for the area I hunt. The slug entered the left shoulder in front of shoulder blade ( it was a front quartering shot which I practice consistently), passed through to the other side, destroyed the opposite shoulder, and was trapped under the hide. Deer are not the toughest critters. Through the scope it looked she was hit by a truck. She crumpled right where she stood. I would use them on any medium size to large game with confidence. I used the same gun to hunt feral hogs on ft stewart in GA, with devastating effect. I never had a hog run more than 30 or 40 yds, had several pass throughs, and shattered the shoulder blades each time. Hogs are tough critters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    Enjoyed reading it.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    ...Here's something I've never understood about using slugs. Maybe you all can enlighten me in this thread, and then I can appreciate the above even more. I've always wondered why a person would use a slug rather than just going for a large bore rifle. Isn't the scatter effect of buckshot (or other shot) the best part of a shotgun? So if you lose that, aren't you losing the reason to really use one? The only answer I can come up with on my own, is that a large bore rifle will produce too much overpenetration. I know my questions are somewhat pedantic and come from my ignorance of the topic, so I want to understand the niche of using a shotgun with a slug.
    I don't know that there are absolute, significant reasons for choosing a shotgun over a large bore rifle, but there are little things that can add up to pretty significant, DEPENDING on one's situation and applications. Here are a few of the smaller considerations:

    * Only shotguns can be used in some hunting areas
    * Shotgun versatility- a shotgun can be a birdshot, buckshot, slug gun. Easy barrel and choke changes provide even more versatility, e.g. I recently purchased a camo rifled barrel for $200 for shooting sabots in the same gun I shoot rifled slugs.
    * Uses of a big bore rifle are kinda limited; a shotgun is the most versatile gun there is.
    * One may have a shotgun and needs a big bore but can't justify the cost for the limited applications.
    * Slugs are not as aerodynamic as rifle bullets, with a the sabots being a possible exception, so they don't travel nearly as far.
    * That big ol 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 oz load pays little attention to twigs etc in the path.
    * Loads are available (or used to be, but then what ammo is available right now ) from ultra light to 3-1/2" magnums. Although, I don't know why anyone would want to shoot a 3-1/2" magnum load.
    * A shotgun allows you to swap out loads on the fly, e.g. slug changeovers.
    * Buckshot with the right barrel and choke can take game on the move with more ease than a single projectile.

    And then there's stuff like this - oh, as you watch, notice the time when I start the four round burst and when it stops. Also, notice the recoil. The camera is right on the mag tube so you have to notice the movement of the pic with respect to the stationary objects, i.e. walls and ceilings:



    If I had been using 00 instead of range ammo, that would have been 4 shots of nine .30 caliber pellets in one second! Well, one second is the best I could measure with video markers, at half speed playback it looks to be a bit less than one second. Thirty-six shots in a second. There isn't a full-auto sub gun made that can do that - small arms, guys, not electric Gatlin guns.

    For me though, my purpose is to evaluate the shotgun as an all purpose gun from HD, bird/small game, less-lethal, large game hunting out to 100 yds, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    ...Gotta admit though, the idea of that much lead moving as one at 2100 feet a second is pretty enticing.
    Big grin - yeah, that too! ;yup: Actually it's moving at 1410 fps (Royal Star) with an energy of 2171 ft-lbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurahe View Post
    Instead of shooting foster slugs....... try a Sabot slug, if your gun has a rifled barrel. I shoot a mossberg 500 20ga with Hornady sxt slugs..... i can put 5 in a pie plate at 175 yds. At hunting ranges they shoot flatter and group significantly tighter than foster style slugs in my gun. And if you are curious how they work........ I dropped a very large doe at 110ish yds last fall, which is a very long shot for the area I hunt. The slug entered the left shoulder in front of shoulder blade ( it was a front quartering shot which I practice consistently), passed through to the other side, destroyed the opposite shoulder, and was trapped under the hide. Deer are not the toughest critters. Through the scope it looked she was hit by a truck. She crumpled right where she stood. I would use them on any medium size to large game with confidence. I used the same gun to hunt feral hogs on ft stewart in GA, with devastating effect. I never had a hog run more than 30 or 40 yds, had several pass throughs, and shattered the shoulder blades each time. Hogs are tough critters.
    I hear ya and do much appreciate the comments.

    As I said above, I do have a 24" fully rifled slug barrel and I can't decide whether I want to go that route or not. There is absolutely no question that the sabots fired from a fully rifled barrel are more accurate than rifled slugs - not sure why they call them rifled slugs; they have the grooves, but they don't impart spin - anyway...And there's no doubt the sabots are effective stoppers - I've read/heard stuff like you've stated from others too.

    My problem is once I switch to the rifled barrel, I lose the bukshot capability although, one can shoot buckshot and even rifled slugs through a rifled barrel, Mossberg, the manufacturer of my barrel, recommends not doing that.

    If I thought I would be facing ranges around the 100 yard range, I'd pop that rifled barrel on - I already have a bunch of sabot rounds on hand.

    As a matter of fact, I read several users comments about the Winchester sabot rounds I have, saying not only were they more accurate in a rifled barrel, but they are also more accurate from a smooth bore than rifled slugs. Not sure how that can be, but the guys were pretty adamant about it.

    I do intend to compare the sabots to the rifled slugs, so that should be interesting. Thanks for the thoughts!
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    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Tangle,

    Ahh, so the idea of slugs in a shotgun is not that it is necessary better that a large bore rifle, or buckshot for home defense. It's more of a utilitarian thing: one gun for many applications equals less money. I was under the impression that a number of people chose a slug in a shotgun because they thought it was better than a large bore rifle in performance, and I couldn't fathom that.

    However, I can definitely fathom performance + cost + danger of overpenetration + being on a turkey shoot and exclaiming Look at that buck! And I have my tags on me too! Pass me the buckshot/slug loads = better choice of gun. That I get, and completely understand.

    BTW - I take it you were shooting a semi automatic? I was looking for one - actually thought I had one a few months ago. Ended up with a couple pump shotguns, but want a semi for many of the reasons you mentioned.

    Although, I do have to disagree with you. Automatic pistols do come pretty close: M-11 27 rounds a second (26.6), Glock 18 puts twenty rounds a second down range. Sure, that's not 36, but I think either way, whether you hit the person or not, they're going to have serious laundry problems.

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    Tangle, I have used Dixie Tri ball loads with great success on hogs. dixieslugs.com It launches three .60 caliber balls @ 1100fps, Each ball weighs about 330 grains. They are not pure lead, but a lead alloy, so they won't flatten out on the hogs gristle plate like a fosters slug will. The Tri Ball load hits harder than anything I have ever launched out of my 12 gauge, and they put hogs down right now. They also make a 3 1/2" load if you feel the need for another 100 fps. Just thought I would throw it out there in case you haven't heard of them. I will be hunting hogs this weekend, can't wait.

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    If I could only have one gun it would be a shotgun.

    I think that a 12 ga shotgun is one of the best survival weapons to have due to its versatility and the ability to find ammo (still 12ga field loads at my local walmart).

    Tangle I would just use the smoothbored barrel
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    Those RIO's kind of look like the Brennekes. Some slugs are built to penetrate and stay together better than others instead of expanding into a donut or segmenting into pieces. Assuming the slug penetrates deep enough I say a 70 caliber hole is better than a 30 caliber.



    Range is limited but they get the job done under 100 yards. Here's some impressive kills with slugs


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    Tangle,

    Ahh, so the idea of slugs in a shotgun is not that it is necessary better than a large bore rifle, or buckshot for home defense. It's more of a utilitarian thing: one gun for many applications equals less money. I was under the impression that a number of people chose a slug in a shotgun because they thought it was better than a large bore rifle in performance, and I couldn't fathom that.
    Well, a BB rifle would be better than a SG in some hunting situations where large, tough game is involved or maybe longer ranges and penetration is critical. Although for longer ranges BBs aren't all that great either.

    I think buckshot has distinct advantages for HD over the slug, yet at the same time, there are both advantages and disadvantages to both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    ...However, I can definitely fathom performance + cost + danger of overpenetration + being on a turkey shoot and exclaiming Look at that buck! And I have my tags on me too! Pass me the buckshot/slug loads = better choice of gun. That I get, and completely understand.
    Good example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    ...BTW - I take it you were shooting a semi automatic? I was looking for one - actually thought I had one a few months ago. Ended up with a couple pump shotguns, but want a semi for many of the reasons you mentioned.
    Oh, yeah it was a semi; a Mossberg 930 SPX to be exact. I'm fast with a pump, but no where near that fast.

    I don't have time right now, but maybe later on tonight or tomorrow I can list some advantages of the semi-auto - it's more than just user preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    ...Although, I do have to disagree with you. Automatic pistols do come pretty close: M-11 27 rounds a second (26.6), Glock 18 puts twenty rounds a second down range. Sure, that's not 36, but I think either way, whether you hit the person or not, they're going to have serious laundry problems.
    Yeah, but, as they say, pretty close is not the same. 36 rounds a second is 33% faster than 27 rounds per second, and 36 rounds per second is 80% faster than 20 rounds per second.

    But your point is well received, at those rates of fire it really doesn't make a lot of difference. The real biggy is that we can legally own a 36 round per second gun and we can't the other two. Well with the same ease of procurement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahr2Kahr View Post
    Tangle, I have used Dixie Tri ball loads with great success on hogs. dixieslugs.com It launches three .60 caliber balls @ 1100fps, Each ball weighs about 330 grains. They are not pure lead, but a lead alloy, so they won't flatten out on the hogs gristle plate like a fosters slug will. The Tri Ball load hits harder than anything I have ever launched out of my 12 gauge, and they put hogs down right now. They also make a 3 1/2" load if you feel the need for another 100 fps. Just thought I would throw it out there in case you haven't heard of them. I will be hunting hogs this weekend, can't wait.
    Glad to hear that! I'll take a look and see if I can find some. My tactical shotguns that I'll be using, very likely a souped up Benelli M4 won't chamber a 3-1/2" round so that's not an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    If I could only have one gun it would be a shotgun.

    I think that a 12 ga shotgun is one of the best survival weapons to have due to its versatility and the ability to find ammo (still 12ga field loads at my local walmart).
    Exactly what I'm exploring right now; i.e. where the limits are, what are the limits are, etc. for a shotgun and just how many applications can it meet.

    My thinking is a tactical shotgun with a 'bird' barrel for it. Although, given my M4, I wouldn't be able to get a 'bird' barrel for it - at least not that I'm aware of. But I can change out the choke, and have some on hand, to modify the shot spread, so it might do pretty well as a bird gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Tangle I would just use the smoothbored barrel
    Again, that seems to be the conclusion I'm coming to. While the rifled barrel would extend the range, around here range is not so much of a problem and I think I can find some ammo accurate enough in a smoothbore out to about 100 yards. I think from 50 to 100 yards the sights are probably more significant to accuracy than smoothbore/rifle bore. I.e. bead sights, rifle sights, red dot, scope.
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