Is This Legal? Question About 4473 and Pickup

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Thread: Is This Legal? Question About 4473 and Pickup

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    Ex Member Array MJB_17's Avatar
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    Is This Legal? Question About 4473 and Pickup

    Got a call today from my not so local LGS that my HK P2000SK in .357 Sig came in yesterday (yay!), unfortunately they are closed tomorrow and I will be out of town on business all next week. I really don't want to leave it sitting there for a whole week and I'm sure they want the other 80% of their money ASAP so I was thinking that I could have my girlfriend go and get it for me? She's totally clean background wise as am I obviously but would this be considered a straw buy ? They already have my credit card info and I'm fine with them just billing it for the remaining amount for the gun since that's how I would pay in person anyway but I want to be sure it is legal for her to be the one on the 4473 even though the gun is really for me. I didn't bring it up with them on the phone and just said I was away right now but would be there to get it ASAP, didn't want to sound shady about something that may/may not be legal. What is the best way to handle this?

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    Senior Member Array ElMonoDelMar's Avatar
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    The key part of a straw purchase is that the person must be buying the firearm for someone else who would not be legally able to do so themselves. You can buy a firearm to gift to another person that would legally be able to own it.

    FAQ | Dontlie.org

    Edit: Just because it's legal doesn't mean the LGS will allow it. I've found most people (including gun owners and FFLs) don't really have an understanding of what a straw purchase actually is.

    Edit 2: Interestingly enough, the National Shooting Sports Foundation seems to be headquartered in Newtown, CT. Crazy how once you hear about a place in the news, that name starts popping up everywhere.

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    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Not an attorney but I doubt she would be able to pick up a firearm if it is your name...... Nothing would her from purchasing the firearm and then gifting it to you if that does not violate your state law...........
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...if you send your girlfriend with your money to pick up the gun, she will be attempting an illegal sale...according to the ATF...she would have to answer question 11 a. NO and the dealer would be unable to sell it to her. From the instructions to 11 a. on form 4473:

    "Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself...you are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO " to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones..."

    ...she cannot purchase it as a gift for you because YOU are the purchaser and have, in fact, made partial payment...

    ...don't play with these people, especially with the current atmosphere...let the gun languish at the dealer's till you return and keep you, your girlfriend, and your dealer straight...
    ...others may mean well with their opinions...the above quote is from the actual form 4473...you can't get any more accurate than that...

    Quote Originally Posted by MJB_17 View Post
    Got a call today from my not so local LGS that my HK P2000SK in .357 Sig came in yesterday (yay!), unfortunately they are closed tomorrow and I will be out of town on business all next week. I really don't want to leave it sitting there for a whole week and I'm sure they want the other 80% of their money ASAP so I was thinking that I could have my girlfriend go and get it for me? She's totally clean background wise as am I obviously but would this be considered a straw buy ? They already have my credit card info and I'm fine with them just billing it for the remaining amount for the gun since that's how I would pay in person anyway but I want to be sure it is legal for her to be the one on the 4473 even though the gun is really for me. I didn't bring it up with them on the phone and just said I was away right now but would be there to get it ASAP, didn't want to sound shady about something that may/may not be legal. What is the best way to handle this?
    ...from the signature portion of the 4473:

    "I certify that my answers to Section A are true, correct, and complete. I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions, and Definitions on ATF Form 4473. I understand that answering "yes" to question 11.a. if I am not the actual buyer is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law..."

    ...no wiggle room...
    MJB_17, Eagleks, Hopyard and 2 others like this.

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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...well, "several people" includes the ATF... ATF Press Release - ATF Announces Arrest of Straw Purchaser From Barona Resort and Casino Homicide/Suicide Case | ATF and " http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...-campaign.html

    THEY call lying on 11.a. a straw purchase, too...read the third paragraph "illegal purchase of a firearm by one person for another"...so my correction was unneccessary..."straw purchase" and illegal purchase are the same thing, regardless of which type it is...


    ...the term"straw purchase" isn't in law...it's a term that's come to mean illegal purchase for another than the purchaser...by media, laymen, and the ATF themselves...
    Last edited by Snub44; March 31st, 2013 at 03:51 AM.
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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...I edited my post earlier till I could research...in fact, straw purchase is a term not defined in law that's come to be used for illegal purchases by one for another...INCLUDING for one who couldn't pass the check for himself...as stressed in the campaign you're sharing with us...it encompasses ANY illegal purchase of one for another, according to the ATF...see post #5...
    ...you CAN buy a firearm to gift to another person that would legally be able to own it, but you must do it with your own money, not his...
    Quote Originally Posted by ElMonoDelMar View Post
    The key part of a straw purchase is that the person must be buying the firearm for someone else who would not be legally able to do so themselves. You can buy a firearm to gift to another person that would legally be able to own it.

    FAQ | Dontlie.org

    Edit: Just because it's legal doesn't mean the LGS will allow it. I've found most people (including gun owners and FFLs) don't really have an understanding of what a straw purchase actually is.

    Edit 2: Interestingly enough, the National Shooting Sports Foundation seems to be headquartered in Newtown, CT. Crazy how once you hear about a place in the news, that name starts popping up everywhere.
    MJB_17 likes this.

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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...in this case, that would be a felony...since the purchase is already his, he's put money down on it...and the purchase would be made with his money...
    ...had she from the beginning used her money to buy him a gift...and he was not prohibited from buying/owning a gun...no problem...this one needs to be finished by him...
    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    Not an attorney but I doubt she would be able to pick up a firearm if it is your name...... Nothing would her from purchasing the firearm and then gifting it to you if that does not violate your state law...........
    (I'm not an attorney, either, but I held an FFL many years ago, keep up with the laws, and handled the audits for a pawn shop I worked in for 5 years...the ATF has always been easy to work with for me...I am painstaking about following the laws...I'd sooner tug on Superman's cape than try to get something by them...)
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    Ex Member Array MJB_17's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses, I'm going to just let them know when I'll be able to get it and go get it myself when I can. After all, since I'll be away I won't get to have it anyway so why take the risk of getting a visit from some very serious gentlemen in dark blue jackets? I'm going to play it safe and do the purchase in a way that I know is totally legal. On the plus side, a week from now I will have another gun!
    Rock and Glock likes this.

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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...and we'll have pics and a range report? already locate some ammo?

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    Ex Member Array MJB_17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    ...and we'll have pics and a range report? already locate some ammo?
    I have two boxes of range ammo set aside at the dealer and bought some SD rounds online the other day that are hopefully on the way, I don't own a camera so I'll see what I can about pics. I probably get to the LGS next Saturday to get the gun, unfortunately I have a wedding to go to that afternoon/evening so at best range trip on Sunday. A full report will follow! I'm also in process of trying to locate some additional mags, it comes with 2, I'd like to have 3 more for convenience.

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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
    "Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." - C.S. Lewis

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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Excellent choice on the weapon and excellent choice on the chambering.
    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
    "Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." - C.S. Lewis

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    Ex Member Array MJB_17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    Excellent choice on the weapon and excellent choice on the chambering.
    Thank you, I have read a lot about the .357's performance against auto glass and sheet metal. Some might say that this isn't relevant for civilian carriers but I don't agree, a potential car jacking scenario is one I see as most likely in a defense shooting I could be involved in. Add to that the fact that here in TX basically every vehicle has tinted window films on everything except the windshield which is an extra barrier. I know there is the noise issue with .357, but if my life depends on it I can deal with the hearing damage later.

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    Senior Member Array ElMonoDelMar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    ...I edited my post earlier till I could research...in fact, straw purchase is a term not defined in law that's come to be used for illegal purchases by one for another...INCLUDING for one who couldn't pass the check for himself...as stressed in the campaign you're sharing with us...it encompasses ANY illegal purchase of one for another, according to the ATF...see post #5...
    ...you CAN buy a firearm to gift to another person that would legally be able to own it, but you must do it with your own money, not his...
    Yes, sorry I was not clear about who's money it must be. You are correct that if he already has a downpayment, then it would be his money even if the GF paid the rest of it on her own.

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    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJB_17 View Post
    They already have my credit card info and I'm fine with them just billing it for the remaining amount for the gun since that's how I would pay in person anyway but I want to be sure it is legal for her to be the one on the 4473 even though the gun is really for me.
    Have you filled out the 4473 form? If not she can do all the paper work and pay with your credit card. She'll be the owner of a great pistol! You can always do the transfer to you after she picks if up.

    Keep in mind she'll be the legal owner until you affect a transfer, so I wouldn't do anything to upset her as she may look at it as an Pre-engagement present!


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