First Person Shooters?

This is a discussion on First Person Shooters? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Hello All, I asked this back when Doom was becoming popular. I don't remember if it was on the old Shooters.com (now defunct) or I ...

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Thread: First Person Shooters?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    First Person Shooters?

    Hello All,

    I asked this back when Doom was becoming popular. I don't remember if it was on the old Shooters.com (now defunct) or I asked on an old BBS. At any rate, most responses I've gotten have been negative.

    Now we have more realistic versions. They don't, of course, usually let you feel the weapon (though I learned a lot of my reaction with Nintendo and Duck Hunt/Clay pigeon) and they're typically hunt/kill scenarios. I really wish they'd come out with a CCW game that doesn't cost thousands of dollars, just something for the PC with a simple, staightforward set of missions. You'd be penalized for not attempting a retreat if possible, and you'd deal with cell phones and 911, and I believe I'd even program in random tunnel vision and maybe 3+ attackers for the advanced "levels."

    You'd be making use of cover and concealment as well. Everything would be worst case scenarios, with shoot/no shoot solutions.

    I'd like to get my hands on the old Doom engine or similar, but I have severe doubts as to what I remember about coding. I have written Doom maps, but that was years back. I've never created sprites.

    Thoughts? I know these games can effectively reprogram your mind to think a certain way, at least for a time. It would just be a matter of getting your accuracy time in with your CCW.

    I'm thinking this would be especially good for winter 'training' when the range is physically cold and shooting live ammo would be reduced for a few months.

    What do you think? Would this market? Keep in mind I'm thinking gaming consoles and PC here, not the sims that are hauled by semi for police training.

    Also, as an afterthought, there would be much blood, brains, gore, whatnot. The reason for this is that a person who is shot usually leaves a big mess. I'd also have cut scenes where the police respond and treat you differently, depending on how you acted etc.

    Again, this is all hypothetical at this point and may never come to fruition. I'm just thinking "CCW: The Reality" or whatever it may be called would be a valuable learning tool.

    Opinions?

    Thanks,

    Josh <><

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array sisco's Avatar
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    My son's best friend is attending a tech school in Florida where he's learning to program video games.
    I put a bug in his ear for just such a program: a realistic first person game with real life scenarios where you have to make the shoot/don't shoot decision in a timely manner.
    I'm a child of the 60's, but I got over it.

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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I'd rather play a game where I get to throw grenades and leave a buttload of brass in my path. First Person Shooters are about shooting, not about real life decisions. Games are a fantasy world and are not applicable to the real world. If I want CCW training, I want to smell gunpowder.

    I wouldn't buy a game like it, but maybe someone will.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  5. #4
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    You are kidding, right?

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Nope.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    I have played a fair share of FPS back to the original Castle Wolfenstein, then on to Doom and all that followed it. All played on PC.

    You are not going to see a quality CCW game. There are two few people who both CCW and play to be a good market. It would also get boring walking into 7-11 2,000 times before encounterring the first armed robbery.

    There is one game that does a better job of instilling a desire to take cover than any other I know of. Red Orchestra http://www.redorchestragame.com/index.php is a WWII Easter Front game available for $20. It is 99% an online game and has fairly low system requirements.

    Things that make it the most realistic FPS I have ever played.

    1. One Bullet Will Kill You. It is possible to be hit and still be effective but the majority of the time the first round that hits you kills you (or makes you combat innefective).

    2. No Crosshairs. If you want to be accurate you need to bring the site up to your eyes. You use the actual weapons sites to shoot, not a cross hair on your screen.

    3. Run or get out of breath and you have a hard time lining up the sites.

    4. Suppresive Fire. You cannot threaten to actually shoot the player to make him seek cover but they do the next best thing. As shots land near you your view begins to get fuzzy and you start to move in slow motion. The result is incomming fire makes you far less effective. The more incomming fire and the closer it is the worse this gets. The effect is that no longer can you spring up out of cover and charge the MG42 like Sgt. Rock. Two steps out of cover you will not be able to focus on squat and be moving in slow motion. By four steps you will probably be dead. You counter this by having your own team memebers provide suppresing fire on those shooting at you.

    4. Full body motion. Lean, kneel, lay prone, run, jump (not over walls, more like an infantryman weighed down with gear).

    5. Accurately depicted weapons.

    Unlike games like Doom, where the mentality of standing toe to toe and exchanging fire from the hip is ingrained, Red Orchestra makes you very much want to keep your head DOWN and not get shot at. There are morons to be certain, as in all FPS online games, but the community is greatly made of WWII buffs, the creators themselves having started this as a private project/mod and then winning a contest to bring it to market.

    There is also an Armor aspect to the game with some very well represented tanks. I personally am a tread head in game and will often be seen in my T-34-85, Panzer IV, Panther or Tiger tearing up the opposition. Even the best of us tread heads though find our vehicle on fire sometimes and must bail. One of my favorite moments was trapped outside my tank with nothing but a P-38 on the Soviet side of a frozen river. An IS-2 had pulled up and was shelling the German positions on the far side of the river. The commander, to get a better view and thinking himself safe openned the hatch and broke out his binoculars. I raised my P-38, lined up the sites from on the ground behind the tank, and put one 9mm through the back of his head. God I love that game!

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musketeer View Post
    I have played a fair share of FPS back to the original Castle Wolfenstein
    I bought the Return to Castle Wolfenstein for PC just because it had the original Wolf3D game on it. I remember playing that when I was younger. That game rocks.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    I play quite a bit of America's Army (video game as propoganda). It's free (download takes about 3 days with high speed) and probably one of the most realistic FPS I've played. It has a lot of the features Musketeer described in Red Orchestra.

    One of the things I like most about it is the reduced focus on killing the enemy. Tending the wounds of fellow players earns more points than killing the enemy. Mission objectives earn the most points. Acidentally injuring a friendly or non-combatant reduces your score several times more than killing an enemy increases it. Killing a friendly will sometimes send you to jail. It makes the game more fun and encourages teamwork.

    The simulators I've used in the Army IMO offer a little training value for basic concepts only. They can teach tactics and procedures but not skills. They are useful because they are less expensive and more expedient than real training.

    Video games offer almost no training value (but are a heck of a lot more fun).
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

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    Quote Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
    Nope.
    My post wasn't aimed at you freakshow... I agree with you, video games are video games and training is training.

    Why would you stop training in the winter months? Its amazing the differences on the body and shooting when its cold outside, not to mention different clothing etc.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Oh.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Muskateer - I have spent many an hour on that game. I enjoy it for much the same reason. The lack of an aimpoint (read: crosshair) on your screen and the requirement to use iron sights is absolutely amazing the way it ties in with everything else.

    Daddy Warcrimes - I have no experience when it comes to knowing whether or not sims help one out in a combat environment, however I have to disagree when it comes to "offer no training value." I used to play an AH-64D Longbow sim called, quite aptly, "Longbow." To make a long story short, working with Civil Air Patrol and the Army, I ended up completing an 8 week UH-1H Huey introduction and pilot program in 2 weeks. I actually took an old FAA IFR exam for rotary and passed it.

    Of course.... you're talking about down-n-dirty sims, I'm sure. The program I did with full-motion IFR UH-1s @ Davison AAF are a leeeeeeettle different. haha
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    Member Array Go Glock's Avatar
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    While video games are not reality as time progresses the engines will get more advanced and affordable for households. I played a game in an arcade years ago that responded to my movements. You stood under this giant steel hoop and the when you moved your character moved. You had to crouch and sway around to make use of cover in order not to get shot. Though it was just a game and not that realistic to real life shootings it was still better than anything else.

    I think we will see a big jump when developers can get a very realistic virtual reality sytem.

    As for using real guns...I personally know that Police Departments project images of staged scenarios (shoot or not to shoot) to help train their officers. They project the film on a wall/ target and the officers have to shoot the projected individuals. Some are threats and some are innocent people doing very suspicious actions.

    Another good way to help one understand tactics is to play paintball. There is nothing like playing for the first time and hearing rounds buzz over your head and bark from trees hitting your body while hiding behind cover. I think it can help people understand the facts of moving and shooting and why you need to do it.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Force on Force training beats any video game.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    Go Glock, your speaking of the FATS system. It is a great teaching aid for shoot/don't shoot training. The difference is you use real equipment, everything is life size. Weapon recoils (air driven) and you have experienced people critiquing your actions. The operator can change the scenario in midway, to respond to the mistakes or correct actions of the trainee.

    Its a huge difference from sitting in front of your PC playing Chuck Norris.

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    Senior Member Array razorblade's Avatar
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    Mr. Smith, don't take this as a critique or a bash. I really like your idea, and I'm going to add my two cents. This is not a put-down :)
    Video games mass marketed to the general public can not be considered "simulators". There are many more features included into game production that have to attract perspective players, than just an overall scenerio. Cool guns, stimulating narrative/storyline, hot chicks (according to the Rumble Roses rules of gamemaking). To make a simulator "realistic", or about as realistic as any simulation can be, you need to include the mundane, boring, and repeative as well as the fast pace shooting, blood, and overall violence to closely mirror daily CCW'ing. Remember, we respond to how we are conditioned. We have to go from condition yellow to condition black in a second. Unless you live in Baghdad, you don't expect bullets to be shot in anger at your direction when you leave your house. The player shouldn't be in the mindset to "hunt and kill", when he's at the 7-11 buying potato chips. If there is an expected shootout, the player will be on the edge of his seat, ready to mash buttons. However, if make it so that there is a possibility that the scenario is routine and he's forced to scan the area, he'll be alert and but too bored to be poised for attack, because it would have happed a dozen times prior without incident. Then when SHTF, he'll be forced to go from scan the situation, to shootout. That concept will probably not be fun for the average gamer, since we usually want to get into the "meat" of the action quickly.
    You CAN market this as a popular video game, by removing all of the boring and repetive suff. A Doom'ish kind of game set in an urban enviornment, but it cannot be considered training in the least sense. The rules of gameplay, for example, can closely mirror the rules in IDPA (as an example). Reloading behind cover, tactical sequence, tactical priority, emergency reloads, tactical reloads, drawing the weapon and acquiring the front sight, ect. Also including your ideas of having to deal with 911 and tunnel vision (especially for the beginning stages). It would be fun, I'd buy it, and play it during the winter months. But I'll be training with my firearm during those months too. I would only use this game for entertainment purposes. To the gamer that knows nothing about CCW, this would be a modification to the first person shooter concept, much like how you see a plethora of WWII FPS games now. The one thing this can introduce is the "concept" of CCW'ing, and it just might spark some interest in someone's mind they haven't considered. "Hay wait, you mean the police AREN'T going to come to my rescue when I am attacked? I have to defend myself?" Something a few of those gamers should have considered when they were robbed at gunpoint of their PS3's.

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