Inherited an INDUSTRIAL winchester 22 ????

Inherited an INDUSTRIAL winchester 22 ????

This is a discussion on Inherited an INDUSTRIAL winchester 22 ???? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Hi guys and gals, I have an interesting piece I need some help figuring out. So my grandfather is in his late 80's and decided ...

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    Senior Member Array daffyduc's Avatar
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    Inherited an INDUSTRIAL winchester 22 ????

    Hi guys and gals,

    I have an interesting piece I need some help figuring out.

    So my grandfather is in his late 80's and decided to hand out his guns to the family members he wanted to have them now instead of willing them off. In this I received a winchester model 190 with a serial number starting B1509xx.

    Now there appears to be nothing special about this gun on first glance however after disassembly I noticed 2 odd things.

    One the safety was stuck (so I thought) upon closer inspection I found it was not stuck. The entire assembly is milled from a single piece if metal. It's a non moving part.

    Two: the gun appears to have a longer bolt. It will only chamber 22 gallery shorts. These are about half as long as normal 22.

    I asked my grandfather about this rifle. He said he received it from a guy as payment for some mechanic work. He never even shot it. He does not remember the year. He said the guy told him it was from the Coney Island shooting gallery game when the ripped it out. My grandfather must not have believe him as he never shared the story until I asked.

    I checked with winchester who confirmed the safely is just for show and this was a model they sold as a special order. They have no records of the serial to track who bought it.

    Is there anyone who has seen the safety built as part of the metal machine work? Does anyone know anything about the shooting gallery game at Coney Island? Year it was torn out? Model 22's used?

    I have found very little info online.

    The Coney Island historical society has not returned emails or calls.

    How cool would it be if this were the case. ;) I'd never sell it but it would be a cool piece to have some provenance on.







    Thanks
    Thomas



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    INTERESTING.

    You are very lucky in that many places that are completely sold out of .22 LR still do have some .22 SHORT in stock.
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    Oh my... I guess "shooting galleries" are so old, there's an adult generation among us that doesn't know what they are!

    Probably from the late 19th century until the Kennedy era, a staple of nearly every amusement park, state fair or carnival was the shooting gallery. You paid your 50 cents for 10 shots, and shot at mostly moving targets for points and maybe prizes. The typical ammo was .22 Shorts in a "gallery" load which was some kind of frangible composite, to minimize penetration and ricochet potential, and to be easy on the targets. The guns were nearly universally pump guns like the Winchester 1890 and 1906, although the 1903 automatic also saw gallery use (as well as some Remingtons, possibly others). The tubular magazine was quickly and easily recharged, and the older Winchester gallery pump guns have an oddly-shaped loading port on the magazine tube to facilitate reloading from a separate tube loading device.

    The older pump guns had exposed hammers which used a half-cock position as a safety, but in gallery shooting there's no real need for a safety so that's why your gun has a non-functional plug in place of the operable safety. Guns were typically tethered to the shooting bench such that you could really only fire forward, and some were even in fixed swivel mounts, although I suppose once upon a time the guns may just have been loose on the counter.

    If memory serves me correctly, your gun has a cast aluminum receiver, and it wouldn't surprise me if that 'fake' safety button was cast in place. The guns were intended to be affordable (compared to something like the Model 61 pump gun) and had modest hardwood stocks and I believe a painted or anodized receiver. If you do a little searching here on DC, you'll see one of our members (DonnieD) has a few posts over the past year about refinishing a 190. They have a decent reputation for reliability, if not target-grade accuracy.

    By the time the Winchester 190 and its pump- and lever-action siblings came along in the early 60's, shooting galleries were on the wane, and ones using live .22 ammunition were probably gone before the Great Society took hold. In the 90's I took my young boys to a county fair in CT and there was a shooting gallery which used pneumatically operated, full-auto guns similar to airsoft. I think a special order for gallery guns when the 190 came out was a special order indeed, and I doubt that Coney Island would have bought more than a few dozen guns. I'd be surprised if there are thousands of 190 gallery guns out there.

    Have you checked the gun's bore? Might be interesting to see what kind of shape the rifling is in. In general, it's tough to wear out a .22 bore, but shooting gallery use is one way to do it!

    I'd say clean it up and shoot it. Lots of You Tube videos are available to show you how to tear it down and what to look for.


    Here's a link to a picture of a typical shooting gallery - nearly all targets would be moving while you shot. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-M7lYp7sirD...0/DSC07577.JPG
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    Senior Member Array daffyduc's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info. The bore is worn but still good. There is a tether point on the stock.

    Best I can tell they replaced the 1940s shooting galleries designed by William mengal in the 80's with pneumatics. The only reason I found that out is they found one under the new gallery after super storm sandy. It's being refurbished and opened back up. Using pneumatics.

    Mine appears to be a 1960's model best winchester could tell me. Apparently they have been bought and sold so many times the records are scattered.




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    Inherited an INDUSTRIAL winchester 22 ????

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    INTERESTING.

    You are very lucky in that many places that are completely sold out of .22 LR still do have some .22 SHORT in stock.
    Luckily it came with 5500 rounds of 22 lr that don't chamber. ;)

    I have other 22's though.


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    I know the Winchester 1890, .22. pump, gallery rifles can go for as much as $10k in pristine condition. I have the much more common .22lr takedown model which is still worth more than a grand in its condition (I shoot the hell out of it too!). I've never seen a "modern" (meaning after the M 62) one, and quite honestly didn't know they made gallery rifles that late. It looks to be in very good condition, and condition is everything. Those gallery rifles, that were actually used in shooting galleries, like that got beat up pretty badly and had hundreds of thousands if not millions of rounds through them, so a very fine condition is rare. If it's rare, and it probably is, it could be worth a few bucks, especially to someone who collects gallery rifles.

    If Bmcgilvray can't tell you what it is and what it's worth I would check with the guys who live these rifles: WinchesterOwners.com ? View forum - Winchester Model 70

    I love 'em...just not THAT much.
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    Inherited an INDUSTRIAL winchester 22 ????

    Thanks for the info. It is almost pristine.


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    Jaeger, not to hijack the thread, but I have my grandfather's 1890 - a Third Model, takedown, octagonal barrel, made in 1909. It's chambered in .22 Long (dang...) and it's in very good to excellent condition. A real sweetheart and the first .22 I ever shot. I need to ream the dry-fire 'booger' out of the chamber, then find some Longs, which thankfully are still being produced.
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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    I can't remember what .22 I first shot, but I'm positive I've shot that one more than anything else. I've killed quite a few rabbits with it as well, and I'm sorry to say quite a few squirrels. I wasn't so careful about horizon shots when I was a boy. They're a hoot, and you can pump out a whole magazine in seconds. They wear well, and seem to get smoother as the years roll by!
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    I was watching an episode of a British game show called "QI." Which, by the way, is demented in that wonderfully weird British way... anyway, one of the questions was "why were shooting galleries outlawed in pubs?"

    The explanation and answer was that lots of pubs had shooting galleries in Edwardian times. They were banned, not because of an "alcohol and gunpowder" problem, but because patrons would make bets on their shots, and one of the temperance groups managed to hustle through a ban law in the hope that if people couldn't shoot, they wouldn't drink. So everyone moved to darts, and bet on those instead.

    It really was a different England back then... where you could not only carry your pistol into a bar, but shoot it too!
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    Poking around with some searches, here is some starting information to get you going.


    Mangels Shooting Gallery, located at 1214 Surf Ave, Brooklyn, NY. Opened in 2013.

    Dick Zigun, founder of The Seashore, Coney Island, and the one responsible (apparently) for resurrecting a shooting gallery at Coney Island.

    Rhiannon Shaefer, great-granddaughter of William F. Mangels, the original gallery designer.

    Charles Denson -- Coney Island History Project director. Uncertain what organization this guy works for, or how to contact him.

    Phil Schreier, Senior Curator, NRA National Firearms Museum.


    Coney Island Shooting Gallery from 1940s Makes Comeback


    The NRA National Firearms Museum also has some information. Senior Curator Phil Schreier. "Restored carnival attraction had museum built around it. On today's Curator's Corner, John Popp speaks with National Firearms Museum Senior Curator Phil Schreier about a shooting gallery, made by the F.W. Mengels Company in 1903 as a steam-powered contraption and converted to electricity in 1918. The gallery features rows of moving ducks, which competitors shoot at using special .22-caliber rounds designed to crumble upon impact. The National Firearms Museum performed major restoration on the gallery before sealing it in a room and constructing the museum facility around it, meaning that the exhibit can only leave if the building is torn down.


    Wikipedia has scant information on William F. Mangels
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Mangels


    Dick Zigun Unveils Restored William F. Mangels Shooting Gallery @ Brooklyn Daily


    Information on the original galleries designed by Mangels ...
    Antiques & Collectibles - Lifestyle - The Boston Globe


    A cast-iron shooting gallery made in a small Coney Island, Brooklyn, N.Y., machine shop in the late 1800s was the top seller at Grogan & Co.’s auction of the Elli Buk Collection of scientific, medical, and technological artifacts. Buk, an antiques and art dealer in Manhattan’s SoHo neighborhood, died last year at 62.

    The gallery comprising over 150 bird, rabbit, and other targets, sold for $60,000 against a $5,000-$10,000 estimate. It was made by William F. Mangels, who in 1883, at 16, immigrated to this country from Germany and became known as “The Wizard of Eighth Street” for his amusement park inventions, including The Whip, The Tickler and the jumping carousel horse.


    A news story about the opening of the new shooting gallery:
    World War II-Era Shooting Gallery Returns To Coney Island, by Willie Simpson on Aug 7th, 2013


    Some information about restoration at the Oakwood Amusement Park, which is apparently built up at the spot where the old amusements at Coney Island existed. At this spot, numerous old artifacts from the era of the shooting gallery and Ferris wheel that Mangels created have been found: click. If nothing else, you might be able to track down info on those "bullets" that were used, possibly even get leads on where to acquire a couple for your own collection.


    Apparently, W.F. Mangels had a manufactory on W. 8th Street, between Sheepshead Bay Rd. and Surf Avenue. Uncertain what, if any, of it still exists, whether artifacts can still be found, whether artifacts where ever found in any clean-up over the years and where those might have gone.
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    Senior Member Array daffyduc's Avatar
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    Lots of great info. Thank you guys.


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    I've never been to Coney Island, but as a kid, I remember shooting galleries at the State Fair in NW Louisiana. I don't remember how many times, just a few probably, but I shot at one. IIRC the rifle was a pump action/exposed hammer......probably Winchester? I think back then someone made a ".22 gallery bullet". The one thing I clearly remember is that the guys running the gallery had pre-loaded tubes, so they could pull the tube insert out of the rifle and just simply pour in the right amount of bullets to reload it quickly.
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    If it's a gallery gun, it's probably a smoothbore.
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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    I remember as a kid shooting a Thompson looking, "automatic", air powered, gallery rifle at little post-it sized targets with a red star in the middle. The object was to shoot the star out, every bit of paper that had red ink on it, and it was extremely difficult. I remember clearly the guy running the game loaded them with metal tubes filled with the BBs. I was fascinated by it, and would unsuccessfully play till I was out of money.
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