You are registering your guns and do not realize it

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Thread: You are registering your guns and do not realize it

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Old_Dog's Avatar
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    You are registering your guns and do not realize it

    Been thinking about gun registration and how which guns I own can be found out without formally registering them. Just think about it. Have you ever registered a gun for warranty purposes or bought a gun specific holster, accessory or part? Lets see where information about what kind of guns I have can be obtained with a search warrant:

    - Gun store (no warrant needed as the records must be maintained for ATF)
    - Holster makers
    - Crimson Trace
    - OpticsPlanet and the dozens of other stores from which I purchased gun specific items.
    - All the inline stores that I bought most of my guns from
    - Gunsmiths
    - The shooting competition results from 10 years ago for me which are still on the internet

    I am sure that I am forgetting something. For many of us, the information about what we own can be found by legal means. Mandated gun registration would only make it easier, not just possible. Think about who knows what guns you own, sometimes and you will see that your firearms information is not as private as you may think. :) There may not be all of your firearms or number of each model but if you ever bought a gun specific item or registered your gun with a manufacturer, you have just established a record of your type of gun.
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    Array HotGuns's Avatar
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    The 4473 that you sign before you walk off with your gun is entered into a database. Although that info is supposed to be "scrubbed" after 90 days...it is not.

    Proof of this can be see when an FFL is audited by the ATF and the they compare NICS transaction numbers that you have on your 4473's to their numbers for the last YEAR.

    There are many people that insist it isn't so but it is, otherwise how could the ATF know about every single transaction that you did for the last year? Isn't a year longer than 90 days?

    So there ya have it. Registration, whether you like it or not.
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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    If I did not have CCDW, in my state I could actually did years ago have no gun that there was any paper on at all. Buy holsters with cash from the LGS theres no name or Id for that or ammo. No trail at all.

    Now I goofed that up years ago when I got the CCDW and bought the first gun from anything but a private sale. But had I been smart enough back then I could have had all my gun needs filled with nobody knowing I had gun at all.
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    Been thinking about this quite a bit myself recently. Last year, I relocated from one of the most restrictive states in terms of gun ownership (Ca) to one of the least restrictive (Az). In Ca., it was just a given that pretty much every gun I purchased would be registered with the state. In Az., not so much, however, as I started to think about it, I realized that despite Arizona's lenient gun laws, any firearms bought by myself from a licensed retailer could probably be tracked back to me pretty quickly if any agency with any authority were actually interested in doing so. Setting aside the fact (for the moment) that the NSA is vacuuming up just about every piece of digital data on every person in the U.S., I imagine all the major firearms manufacturers in the U.S. probably keep pretty meticulous records, including what guns (including serial numbers) were shipped to what distributors / retailers. Those distributors / retailers in turn probably keep pretty meticulous records as well. Although there'd undoubtedly be some legal hurdles to overcome, I'm fairly convinced at this point that if I ever sold a gun to someone who in turn decided to commit a crime with said gun, and said gun were recovered by police, it would only be matter of time before I got a "visit" asking about said gun. I don't know -- might just be a case of me being slightly paranoid but I'm genuinely curious as to what folks who work in the firearms industry think about this...
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    The sad truth is I had a boating accident last week at Lake Powell. Had all my guns and ammo in the boat and had to swerve to miss an rock pile. Lost everything . As a diver I had thoughts about going down after it but the water there was over 500 feet deep.

    I am heart broken, just devastated. I hope you understand what a tragedy this is for me. Sob Gone, just all gone. Nothing left for me or my kids.

    Guess I'll just have to put a point on the toilette plunger for self defense.:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    If I did not have CCDW, in my state I could actually did years ago have no gun that there was any paper on at all. Buy holsters with cash from the LGS theres no name or Id for that or ammo. No trail at all.

    Now I goofed that up years ago when I got the CCDW and bought the first gun from anything but a private sale. But had I been smart enough back then I could have had all my gun needs filled with nobody knowing I had gun at all.
    IS it just me or have you been imbibing as well?

    CASH is KING.

    F2F cash deals. No 4473. No paper, no deal.

    No OP I was never much to fill in the bogus paperwork for a bogus guarantee. My folks dialed me in on that at a tender young age.

    CASH is KING.

    Part of the reason the Puppet Masters wanna usher in the NWO.

    I (and MANY LIKE ME) love cash. The Gov't. ANY GOV'T. HATES CASH as there is NO WAY they can track it. Tough ship.

    NEVER in my life did I buy a firearm with a credit card or a debit card. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

    THE Government. YMMV.
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  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NONAME762 View Post
    IS it just me or have you been imbibing as well?

    CASH is KING.

    F2F cash deals. No 4473. No paper, no deal.

    No OP I was never much to fill in the bogus paperwork for a bogus guarantee. My folks dialed me in on that at a tender young age.

    CASH is KING.

    Part of the reason the Puppet Masters wanna usher in the NWO.

    I (and MANY LIKE ME) love cash. The Gov't. ANY GOV'T. HATES CASH as there is NO WAY they can track it. Tough ship.

    NEVER in my life did I buy a firearm with a credit card or a debit card. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

    THE Government. YMMV.
    Well gotta agree with ya. I just wasnt real bright. I could CC before we had a permit back then for a while, legally. Then that was over so I got my CCDW when they were legalized here and marked myself. Not sure I would do it again knowing what I know now but that ship sailed years and years ago.

    So I started occasionally buying from a pawn shop or LGS, with cash but there was still the unconstitutional form to fill out. Probably should have just stuck to private sales and no CCDW but as I said that ship has now sailed .
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

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    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    I think the key words here are "with a search warrant." If they have a search warrant, they don't really need records, they'll just come on in and open up the gun safe. If they're stashed, assuming they don't find them, they can still find receipts, serial numbers written down, photos with guns in them, etc.

    Not that I disagree with the idea of limiting the paper trail, but keeping something accessible and still COMPLETELY undetectable is pretty much impossible. Ask any drug runner currently sitting in Federal prison. The thing I worry about is if they start tracking such data without a warrant. Which, incidentally, is why I think Snowden did us a great service.
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

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    Distinguished Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    I'm sure if they are looking they are well versed in my file. I've had several FFL's over the years, A couple of CCWs, and a few business licenses. And I've probably bought, sold or traded over 1000 guns in my lifetime. So if they are keeping lists you can count on me being the test case. DR

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Really all the CCDW does is say I have the permit and in ky it covers more than guns.

    So while it would be a indicator I probably did if I were to sell my guns to a LGS turn and privately buy replacements I would in effect eliminate any trail or proof that I even own a gun. Legally I dont keep serial numbers or receipts on guns ammo etc. Even with a warrant were I determined enough all they could find would be the one I had accessible.

    This all hypothetical of course since we all know our rulers courts and judges have the utmost respect for the 2A and would never infringe on it.
    Aceoky likes this.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array CWOUSCG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old_Dog View Post
    Been thinking about gun registration and how which guns I own can be found out without formally registering them. Just think about it. Have you ever registered a gun for warranty purposes or bought a gun specific holster, accessory or part? Lets see where information about what kind of guns I have can be obtained with a search warrant:

    - Gun store (no warrant needed as the records must be maintained for ATF)
    - Holster makers
    - Crimson Trace
    - OpticsPlanet and the dozens of other stores from which I purchased gun specific items.
    - All the inline stores that I bought most of my guns from
    - Gunsmiths
    - The shooting competition results from 10 years ago for me which are still on the internet

    I am sure that I am forgetting something. For many of us, the information about what we own can be found by legal means. Mandated gun registration would only make it easier, not just possible. Think about who knows what guns you own, sometimes and you will see that your firearms information is not as private as you may think. :) There may not be all of your firearms or number of each model but if you ever bought a gun specific item or registered your gun with a manufacturer, you have just established a record of your type of gun.
    With the exception of original purchase from a FFL none of the rest of your list is registration. Sure there are sales records of the individual business' but so what? Do you honestly think the Feds will get a warrant for the sales records of Galco?

    "If someone gets into your house which would you rather have, a handgun or a phone? You can call the police if you want, and they’ll get there; and they’ll take a picture of your dead body."

  13. #12
    Member Array remington79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWOUSCG View Post
    With the exception of original purchase from a FFL none of the rest of your list is registration. Sure there are sales records of the individual business' but so what? Do you honestly think the Feds will get a warrant for the sales records of Galco?
    They did earlier this year at Ares Armor.
    Ghost1958, Aceoky and Eagleks like this.
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    Distinguished Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    Local Sheriff has my number on his cell phone and visa versa. I'm sure he'll give me (us) a call if he gets the Feds no knocking on his door - fair warning, you know - visa versa.

    Am I missing something? Oh, yah, I forgot. I have Chrome logged into Gmail but Firefox roams free?

    I am not afraid of the future. Only afraid of a future where I will be unarmed and dangerous. I like armed and dangerous better.
    NONAME762 and tcox4freedom like this.
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    Dont ffls have to keep the 4473 forever? subpoena? I agree with you...most states make you keep transfer records so they know who owns the firearm

    cops find xyz gun sn 123 they contact xyz gun co re sn 123 they say they sold it to abc gun shop...abc gun shop produces a 4473 indicating they transfered it to bob smith, they contact bob smith ....he either has the firearm or he has a bill of sale indicating he sold it to tom thomson then then call tom thompson or if bob smith has no gun or no bill or sale he is charged with something felonious and in the newspaper story about the tragic murder that happened with his gun that he transferred illegally

    so yea there is registration, its just not all in one place if the black helicopters collected all the 4473's then bam you are registered

    and just a thing, but I giggle when guys talk about the evils of registration and include all the guns they own in the forum signature with pictures ...its the internet....anyone can see it
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    If the SHTF and things totally break down to no rule of law and your door crashes in because you are suspected of owning firearms and you hand over the boating accident story (or whatever) - Do you think they will believe you? Do you think they will even bother to listen?
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