Disappointing Range Day - When stubborn minds refuse to change...

This is a discussion on Disappointing Range Day - When stubborn minds refuse to change... within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I'm friends with an old Marine that saw combat in Vietnam in 1964. He was in two firefights and received a Purple Heart - and ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 48
Like Tree113Likes

Thread: Disappointing Range Day - When stubborn minds refuse to change...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array mano3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL
    Posts
    977

    Disappointing Range Day - When stubborn minds refuse to change...

    I'm friends with an old Marine that saw combat in Vietnam in 1964. He was in two firefights and received a Purple Heart - and this is why I'm disappointed and confused at his stubborn mindset when it comes to defensive firearms training and concealed carry...

    Flashback to last Thursday: We're at lunch with our other range buddy, a retired Army guy and we're all discussing going to the range this Saturday morning. I say, "Great, but can we really concentrate on our concealed carry methods and actually 'train-to-fight'?"

    I suggest that we go to the pistol berm (not the rifle range that we ALWAYS go to) and actually practice drawing and firing, firing while moving, drawing from differernt carry positions, etc. (this is allowed at this range).

    Mr. Marine responds, "Yeah, we should do that. I'll bring my two primary carry pistols and my holsters."

    Mr. Army responds, "Sounds good. Can I first try out my new rifle at the rife range and then we'll move to the pistol berm?"

    We all agree and set a meeting time. I then later proceed to reload 140 rounds of .40 S&W. Two hours later (single stage press), I have over 200 rounds of reloads ready for our day at the range.


    Saturday at the Range: Mr. Marine sets-up on a shooting bench with his Mauser and Mosin-Nagant Arc Angel; Mr. Army sets-up on a shooting bench with his new rifle (I forget what it was); my son and I set up with our .22's.

    I brought two portable/movable pistol targets in case the other guys didn't want to move after setting-up. This way we could still practice with our pistols at the rifle range.

    Well, we all shoot pretty little holes in paper targets at 25 and 100 yards. It's real easy when everyone is seated at a shooting bench and using a bipod!

    After 45 minutes of this, Mr. Marine announces that it's pistol time and then proceeds to stand rigid while shooting a Star Model 9 (NOT his CC weapon) at a target 25 yards away.

    I inform him that the likelihood of engaging a BG at 25 yards, standing dead still, is unlikely, but he ignores me...

    So, I set up my target at about 10 feet and try to show him the differences in how long it takes to draw from concealed carry (shirt over the gun) as opposed to open carry. He just shrugs his shoulders and says it's time to pack-up and go home...

    I got to fire a whole 25 rounds from my pistol. The three other bricks of reloads just stared back at me with the same confused expression...


    I know Mr. Marine is a stickler for routine and VERY resistant to change, but I'd think he'd be open to 'real as possible' training? I'm completely baffled...

    It actually makes me worry about Mr. Marine, as I really think he will be caught unprepared when it comes time to actually defend himself with a handgun.
    US Air Force, 1986 - 2007

    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." George Mason

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Member Array Czombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    173
    Their choices.....but don't let them stop you from gettin yours.
    mano3, OD*, CWOUSCG and 8 others like this.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ky Backwoods
    Posts
    4,270
    When you look-up the word "stubborn" in the dictionary, it has...my picture. Let your ol' combat-wounded, jarhead buddy do it ANYWAY he's inclined (and thank him for his service & sacrifice). It's one of the (few) refreshing rewards to getting older, when I came to the realization that it's MUCH EASIER to simply watch the world, rather than trying to...CHANGE IT!
    mano3, redmc, WHEC724 and 9 others like this.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array mwhartman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    South FL
    Posts
    807
    Interesting story! I imagine the past experience is, understandably, driving his views. I think future range visits should include you and your son. Then, you can prepare as you feel necessary. My sense -- should you ever be in a fire fight you will not have either Mr. Marine or Mr. Army with you, so your preparation is paramount!

    Mike
    Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144

    Ruger owners check our sister forum http://rugerpistolforums.com a great site to share and learn about your Ruger pistols.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array mano3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL
    Posts
    977
    This 'train-to-fight' conversation came up awhile ago and he said that he just shoots how he was trained - in other words, typical old-school stationary military rifle training with just changes in firing stances.

    I get that, as that is how I was trained in the USAF. I'm assuming old-school military pistol training is the same (never trained with a pistol in the military)?

    Now, when he tells me aobut the firefights, he admits that all his training 'went out the window' and he just pointed and shot as quick as he could at the enemy. So, he realizes that there is a difference...
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    US Air Force, 1986 - 2007

    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." George Mason

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ky Backwoods
    Posts
    4,270
    Training for personal/home defense is miles (and MILES) away from military training. The problem is: the more military training someone has received, the less of the second type of training they believe ...they NEED!
    gatorbait51 and mano3 like this.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array Old Sarge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    533
    Old mindsets never change.



    NRA LIFE MEMBER
    USAF RETIRED
    gatorbait51 likes this.

  9. #8
    Senior Member
    Array farsidefan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,153
    I am a bit puzzled as to why you are concerned about how HE trains. Other than the fact that this time it infringed upon your training time. Besides, if he can whack the bad guy at 25 yards he is good to go from 10 feet (ok, not really, but just sayin)

    I'm not a range master or an instructor so I just leave it alone until it affects me. Control, as I learned when I had teenagers, is an illusion.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Typos are for the entertainment of the reader. Don't let it go to your head

  10. #9
    Member Array danv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    W Michigan
    Posts
    72
    Next time drive separate then you and your son can stay longer and do you own shooting even if they don't want too.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    3,434
    I would plan my next range day without either of these two. Let them punch paper at 100 yards with their rifles, and you go practice what you need to practice. While I appreciate their service THEN, I personally like to live for NOW and what might be useful to me tomorrow. JMO.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,242
    I would have moved over to the berm when I saw what was going on.
    It's really no different than showing up someplace with your buddies and each going their separate way until it's time to leave. You're still kinda doing it together.
    SIGP250 likes this.

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array mano3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL
    Posts
    977
    After that day, I've realized that I'll go to my range with my kid and only go with those guys if I get a new long gun or need to sight-in a long gun.

    BTW: I appreciate his service and we're still friends, it's just so frustrating that at 70+ he still thinks he's invincible and has no worries while carrying.

    Oh well, I hope he's never in a bad situation...
    US Air Force, 1986 - 2007

    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." George Mason

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    5,630
    Im not in the Old Marines head but he has saw what most here have not for real with live ammo coming back at him. And realizes when the fur flies for real being able to hit what your shooting at is really the only thing of "training" that wont fly out the window and leave one either able to think fast on their feet or not.

    Thank him for his service and train the way you feel you should train.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,679
    I wouldn't worry too much about the ol Marine. After what a veteran sees and goes thru, it's kind of hard to take anything very serious. I know I don't.
    And no one will really understand that unless you have been there.
    You either don't give a double damn , or you are hyper vigilant.
    HotGuns, hayzor and mano3 like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Music City, USA
    Posts
    2,954
    In general, military men dont think very highly of pistols. Heck, thats putting it VERY mildly. Most look at them as a step above toys. With pretty good reason.

    NO ONE reaches for a pistol first, in combat. They are less powerful, less accurate, and lower capacity.

    Id also not discount the fact that there is an "ego factor" playing into this for them. You sound like the younger "whipper snapper" compared to them. You certainly are up on things they are not up on, and maybe they didnt want to play your game, and get "beat" by you.

    When I was a boy, pistols were sort of "expensive toys", that few people had. Criminals had them, and a few odd balls, but virtually no one carried back then. The laws were such that it was essentially not done.

    The pistols people bought then reflected the sorry state of the law, too. They were almost "Fantasy pistols". Some guy might buy "the dirty harry" pistol. Just for the heck of it.

    Chances are a guy bought a gun ill suited for carry, (which was actually fine, because no one could carry), buy two boxes of shells with it. Hollow points, and one pack for the range. Leave it in his bedroom nightstand drawer till times got hard, or the wife got tired of seeing it gather dust, then he sold it. With a very low round count on it.

    Also, if people did seriously pistol shoot back then, many practiced the old standing sideways & firing one arm extended, the other hand in the small of their backs, "Olympic Style". Looked very dashing, I must say, lol. Its a great way to practice to become dead, but certainly looks impressive.

    You are correct. The problem lies in their mindset. And it is THEIR problem, not yours. Heres what they probably think; They are alerted to a threat. They wake up, or if awake, spy the threat coming from a distance that they already have in their heads, and then proceed to carefully draw, aim, then command the malfactors to cease & desist!

    You have indicated that you know thats just a great way to end up being a victim, or become dead. You are correct, too.

    Perhaps something like the FBI stat that shows many times the victims first clue that they are under attack comes when they walk past the corner of a building and are hit in the face, would change their thoughts on tactics. Probably not, but who knows?
    farsidefan1, mano3 and LtBlue425 like this.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

frontsight guardian membership

Click on a term to search for related topics.