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Interesting observation at local public range

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#1 · (Edited)
I spent a happy afternoon at a local public outdoor pistol range. In addition to practicing my marksmanship, I find that it is a great place to harvest once fired brass from those shooters far wealthier than I. I'm glad that they can afford to shoot factory ammunition. Harvesting as I do, I have noted that the mix of ammunition has changed a bit over the past few years. The once predominant (ubiquitous) 9mm is no longer the hands down favorite. The 40 S&W is giving the 9 a run as the most popular and the .45 acp is more common than a few years ago and darn little else was seen. On the firearms side, it is clear that the plastic pistols are VERY popular. I believe that I was one of only a few that had all metal pistols and one of even fewer that shot a revolver.
Sadly, marksmanship has declined on average. I looked at all 20 of the target holders (at 50 ft) while wandering downrange to look at my groups. Darn few groups were seen, the vast majority was loose patterns with the target holders getting the worst of it (24" W X 30" H set about 4 feet off the ground) The ground in front of and behind the target holders was all chewed up from stray ( ? ) rounds.
I also observed that a lot of people are obsessed with rapid fire. 10 rds in 5 seconds and a lot of dust downrange.
I had one gentleman ask me how I could put 8 rds of .45 into 3" at 50 ft in about 8 seconds using both hands. I did not have the heart to tell him I (Use-ta-could) use to put 10 rds into less than 2" with one hand behind my back in 10 seconds. (concentration, sight picture, trigger squeeze - -practice practice practice.) sigh.

What do you-all see at your local range?

Roger
 
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#2 ·
Like you, lotsa shootin' & less hittin' than in years past.

9's are still popular, but .45's and especially .40's are more so. Modern pistolero tactics/doctrine is apparentlyget a polymer high cap, point it at the BG and blaze away.

I'd criticize that kind of thinking, but I won't, 'cause I think it works, even if I don't like it.

Don't get me wrong, I think LEO's and all are still taught to aim their weapons, but I think they're ALSO taught to get that 2d, 3d, 4th (whatever) round into or at the BG ASAP, too. There's a good reason for that, too: handgun rounds are not sure one-shot stoppers- none of'em are.

To mix apples and oranges here, it resembles military shooting a little bit (IMHO). Since WWI or so, we've moved from "one shot one kill" to "hurl lead toward the target, the more the better". In armed forces type combat the shooting can make the BG's get their heads down and provide cover, etc.

If you're from a hunting background, it's a kind of thinking that requires some getting used to. But, IMHO, it's valid, 'cause, like I say, handgun rounds aren't fantastic one-shot stoppers, so the more the merrier- and as quickly as possible.
 
#4 ·
I tend to agree with the observations, altho 9mm sure gets a good use with local IDPA, along with .40 and .45acp..

I try to differentiate between true rapid and ''blazing'' - tho at times hard to tell them apart!! We do most definitely need to practice fast shooting but, with attention to consistency and grip etc. There is little doubt that two fast misses will not do as much as two slower hits!!

Some folks seem to just enjoy ''blazing'' .... which is Ok up to a point but at times a lot of that seems pretty distracting. Maybe distraction is good tho as we are unlikely to be in a peaceful environment if under fire!!

I also at times wonder about the apparent bottomless purses some folks seem to have, with their profligate burning up of ammo!
 
#6 ·
Way too many people burning through ammo way too fast. I also see relatively few practicing like they would use the weapon. The aimed fire I see is more like target shooting with no attempt at a rapid first round on target. I also see folks failing to take the first shot like they would draw and use their weapon.

Train like you are going to fight. It is obvious to even a casual observer that most are not students of armed conflict at the ranges

Makes me glad that I am a member of the forum and can learn from others.
 
#7 ·
I doubt I am any more wealthy than you Roger. If I were wealthy, I may go make the investment in reloading equipment. However, I stick with buying bulk ammo at low prices. It would cost me more upfront and less in the long run to reload, I know. But, my way doesn't break the bank either.

Apart from that, I guess I am headed toward being one of the people you spoke of. Picking up sights is harder than it used to be (and I'm not that old) and Randy is correct about multiple rounds being important. I find that I am slower at getting round one on target, but faster on follow shots than I used to be. Could be that I am not seeing the sights as well as my mind says I am, but I don't know. The groups are bigger, but they are still COM
 
#9 ·
I once saw two guys dressed identically (definately non LEO/MIL) with thier matching Glocks and FOBUS holsters, shooting the 3 round capacity of the range in about 3 seconds. They hit dirt, the target backers, and ocassionally the paper...


It seems to me that atlseast here in PA and other places, some members of the younger generation are getting into firearms, but not into training.

As noted above this all goes along with "What's on TV"

Personally I feel every one that is going to own a firearm be trained to use it, while most of us here have been taught since our early youth and or military training we tend to balk at some of the "requirements" to obtain our CCW/LTCF, etc. etc. but this is the cost.

As the crowd at the range gets younger, you will see much enthusiasm, but less of the fundamentals.

Now when I say younger, I don't always mean age alone, some new shooters are just new, and unfortunately as stated above, training is not always a requirement.

Velocetete, I hope you did tell them how you can do it, when ever we see people not practicing the fundamentals and asking for advice, we should give it whole heartedly and encourage them to take what ever training classes they can find.

If no one is willing to teach them, they will never learn.

I've gone out of my way a few times to help out those asking for pointers, I've even been late for dinner a few times because of it, but to me, time on the range helping others is almost as good as being the one shooting.
 
#18 · (Edited)
It seems to me that atlseast here in PA and other places, some members of the younger generation are getting into firearms, but not into training

As the crowd at the range gets younger, you will see much enthusiasm, but less of the fundamentals.
I agree and I am from the younger age group (I am 22). I see folks my age more and more want to do X,Y or Z but not want to get any training or help to learn and that is not just in shooting but in everything. When I learned to shot my dad taught myself and 2 friends on revolvers, and then my uncle introduced me to pistols. Both of these men have been shooting and carrying since before I was born, both are (as am I) more interested in quality than quanity. Over christmas I had the opportunity to take a 20 year old friend out to the range to teach her how to shoot. I stressed quality, she shot probably 75 rounds of 38 out of my dad's 357 that day in more than 2 and a half hours, while I concentrated more on my 380 and mom's 38 charter arms j-frame. Out of our shots 95% or more were atleast on paper from 30 feet - 80% + were COM.

I think we have too many new shooters who are getting into it blind. They want to have a gun so they go buy one and start to shoot. They dont seek out competent teachers nor do they seek out certified training. I will admit I have not had the opportunity as of yet to take a training course, But I want to and I have been trained by competent teachers and I am very safe on the range. The trust for my safety and ability my parents have was shown by us making it a family trip for me to buy my first gun and them lending me the house gun and moms ccw (both she and dad were home with a glock) to go to the range to teach a friend.
 
#10 ·
I don't pay any attention to what others are doing at the range.
I know where you are comin from but - one reservation. Now and again I see as I expect others might, some ''idiot shooters'' ........ and those I do want to pay attention to in case they decide that my direction is where their loaded gun will sweep!

I am lucky and rarely shoot on a crowded range but - oh my - there have been a few times when I could not concentrate fully on what I was doing, because of the need to monitor potential idiots. Blatant ones will usually and hopefully get sent on their way home but there are others who might not be quite as obvious idiots but who are still a liability.

I am convinced there are a few folks in indoor ranges who consider the lane separator baffles are bullet proof!
 
#11 ·
I usually have no idea what is going on two stalls down. I don't know how one could monitor others in that manner while shooting their own gun. I have enough on my plate concentrating safe shooting. If I felt that I had to constantly worry about others, I would stop going to the range.
 
#12 ·
:rofl: :danceban: :rofl: :rofl: Ever wonder how all those bullet holes got into the ceiling at the indoor range??? Somebody was probley doing a Dirty Harry stance. You know what I mean. The gun pointed over the shooters head,then brought down with hammer cocked and gun goes off while still in the air. I saw this happen one night twice by the same shooter. What an idiot.
 
#13 ·
Gentlemen, I was not discussing COM hits, (10" ~ 12" diameter circle at 50 feet.) That's reasonable defensive shooting. I mean 200 rounds downrange and perhaps 30 on the paper (24X30) When approached the shooter suggested that he did not need to learn "nuthin" from some old man.
Fine by me, I harvested his once fired .40 brass and watched him make a fool of himself.
I was a certified NRA pistol instructor and an NRA Master Bullseye shooter. (Hence I use-ta-could) If he - they would listen and apply, in 20 minutes their targets would have a lot more holes in COM, but I might not harvest as much nice shiny new brass.

Roger
 
#16 ·
I also harvest brass. I am a member at two ranges, one outdoor where you can go in front of the line to retrieve brass and one indoor where you can't. At both I always aim to come home with more than I took with me.
In the past few months I have picked up everything from .380 to .50AE.
That includes .38 super, .38 spl, .357 mag, .357 sig, 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm and even 5.7mm. I don't know how people can drop revolver ammo but they do.
I would guess the most common is still 9mm, then .22lr, then .40.

I always keep an eye on the other shooters, especially on the occasions when they look like gang members. As long as they are safe I don't mind who shoots near me, or how fast they use their Wal*Mart white box.
 
#17 ·
I have been thinking of starting to reload given the higher cost of ammo. But it would seem to me, the supplies will keep up as well. And maybe come closer as more people start reloading.

Given most of the folks at the public outdoor range are not all that good. I think I have a very good advantage if I meet the BG some day. Some of them scare me.

I belong to a members only outdoor club, and most of the folks their are not bad shots. They seam to be in it for the quality hits, not just sending lead down range.

I must admit some times it is just plain fun to pull the trigger as fast as I can. :image035:
 
#19 ·
I'm convinced that aiming at a target and having one whit of concern for safety measures are two distinctly separate skills. All too often, one is taught without the other. IMO, the one should be taught until it's a part of one's bones ... then, and only then, should the other be taught. Otherwise, everyone's at risk.

Data point: The other day at the rifle range, I saw a guy approach with a friend, toting a nice AR15. It was brought out onto the table with the muzzle pointing all directions and the hand/finger placement all over the grip/trigger area. When done with a string of shots, he'd place the gun back onto the table while ignoring muzzle control. Thankfully, an older, pistol of a range officer was standing guard and a word to him prompted a strong discussion with the young, wayward shooter. From then on, he held the others in a bit more respect. I have no doubt that had he continued to display a complete disregard for safety, he'd have had his membership to the club yanked and been summarily ejected from the range. He was that close. (Needless to say, since I was at the next stall beside him, I stood well away until his understanding was resolved for him.)
 
#20 ·
I could go on and on about public ranges. I've worked on one for several years during college, I've seen about every thing there is to see at a range.
Guns fall apart and the slide knocking out the teeth of a guy, fat guys taking belly shots "because they know how to shoot, after all grandpa taught them years ago", fingers exploding because a kid wants to shoot a 454 with his hand wrapped around the barrel, again, he knew how to do it, Grandpa taught him.:rolleyes:
I've seen the famous Kaboom from Glocks, and every one of them was from a misused gun, who's owner apparently knew more about the weapon the Gaston Glock himself. I broke a guys finger once because he came around with a Beretta 92 (I was in the booth with him) so he could show me the "malfunction". It was not a malfunction at all, the gun was in single action mode, there was simply more "loose" trigger space as he put it before the gun went off. :gah: The gun was taken away from him, and he got a ride to the ER. :yup:
I got shot once on a public range. Yup, I really did, but its not as bad as it sounds. The backstop was not and still is not maintained. A 9mm bounce off the stop and came right back at my throat. Luckily is was in a weaver stance gun up and shooting. The bullet struck my left hand just below my ring finger, and destroyed a G23 that I was shooting. I didn't think the bullet would have had that kind of velocity left, but it did. Had I just been standing there, it would have caught my throat. That would have been really bad. It cost me a few weeks of work, some surgery, and it still hurts during cold weather.
I saw a suicide while working there... that was kind of erie. Guy comes in, rents a .357. He buys a couple of boxes of .38s, and one box of .357. He goes on the range, shoots the .38s up, loads up with .357. Starts with this banshee like yelling, I was just about to tell him to knock it off, then bang, he offed himself. It really made a mess of things. I had to work over my time, 'cause the LEO's wanted to talk all day long about this. I missed school that day.

Once there was a photo shoot on the range after hours... That was really cool. It was one of those "hot chicks with guns" type of things.

The biggest problem with public ranges is this; people view it as entertainment, not training.
There are the vast majority of shooters that feel that they are experts at pistol craft because grandpa taught them years ago, and they know everything there is to know.
Then you have the Tactical Timmy crowd that reads every moronic gun magazine, plays video games. So they go out and buy their HK whatever was in tomb raider, thigh holsters etc. They come in looking for the "anti terrorist" ammo they saw in a magazine (remember that! :ticking: ) Then they go out on the range and "practice". For what I don't know. The dance around, summer saults whatever they saw in their goofy video games until they get kicked out, and sent to the local dungeons and dragons club.
Then there is the small amount of folks that are really shooters. There interests are in rational self defense, bulls eye shooting or whatever. What a relief when you get someone in like that.
I guess I'll stop here. Like I said I could go on and on, and I've already started too.:embarassed:
 
#21 ·
SIXTO says: The biggest problem with public ranges is this; people view it as entertainment, not training.

X 100 I get my entertainment from having quality training. Others don't view it that way, so as long as they are safe, I guess it is better than having them as anti's. My previous comments were observations while I was grouchy, but valid none the less.

VA has been messing with my meds too, SaltySquid!
 
#22 ·
SIXTO,
Every moron, mall ninja and wanna be gangsta in the area goes to that range, its kinda scary there. I remember hearing about that suicide there too. I try to avoid going there, but sometimes when I just want to get some quick range time or its like it is today outside (bet your finger must be killin ya today), I'll go there. I got a small sliver of a bullet in my face their once from a ricochet off either the backstop or a target holder. Gotta keep a close eye on the folks at indoor ranges.

The other indoor range I use is the one on campus. It's close, I don't have to drive 30+ minutes, but it only takes .22's, and you have to be part of a school shooting organization/class to use it, and can only do so during certain times. I have commented on here several times about the shooters on that range, most of whom have never touched a firearm before, or are just general morons. I am a range safety officer for it, and usually have to keep a pretty sharp eye out. Everyone wants to shoot like they see in the movies, with no real attempt at training or improving their skills.

I have been guilty in the past of blasting away like ammo was candy. It is fun to do sometimes. But the vast majority of my rounds are sent downrange with a purpose. Too bad most ranges I know don't allow any sort of draw practice on the line (well, with some of the people on the range, its understandable), so I usually start from a low ready to at least practice sight acquisition. Most of my peers don't even try to do any sort of training, just buy a gun they saw in the movies and shoot it a few times like a moron till they are tired of it. It's a source of fun for them, not a serious tool.
 
#23 ·
I use a Forestry Service range and have few problems...'cuz I go while everyone else at work/school! A lonley day at the range...or with selected company...is a good day.

Why? Because of a day that included two non-English-speaking males of discernible origin firing AK's like there was no tomorrow...or at least unlimited ammo...with little or no muzzle control. They were swingin' and shootin' everywhere. Sheesh...and I thought the city kids were scary!!! (The hill-folk don't bother me...they KNOW their weapons and are usually safety conscious.) That ended my range visits on weekends and after 1500.

[Flame retardant: the description of the males in question is provided as factual information concerning those two particular individuals only... it is not meant to generally characterize non-English-speaking or multi-lingual males of any origin who reside in the Central USA.]

Oh...and I like doing doubles, triples, and Bill Drills....with the intent to fire accurately. Then...just 'cuz...I'll load one round at a time...and call the shot. That's fun...and frustrating...kinda like playing golf.

Michael
 
#24 ·
Ah...shooting with the public. I guess its like anything else, there is always at least one idiot. We have all probably seen firearm misuse due to lack of training, over-zealousness or just plain ignorance.

It is pretty easy to tell who is serious about shooting and who is there for fun. The folks that are there for entertainment lack purpose or a routine. I find at least for me that my range time is beneficial only when I have decided in advance what I am trying to accomplish. While I enjoy shooting just for the sake of shooting my range time is laid out to make sure that I am ingraining the proper stance, sight picture, presentation and trigger control. Those are things that I have to commit to memory. They have to become automatic.

I would hazard a guess that everyone on this board approaches their range time in much the same manner. Even though we all enjoy shooting we are at the range in order to prepare for that moment when we have to be on our game. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are there for a purpose. We train properly because we have decided to take responsibility for the defense of ourselves and our families and we take that responsibility very seriously. Due to this fact the ones that are there for fun stick out like sore thumbs to us.
 
#26 ·
I don't have an indoor range to go to. We use one of the ranges on Ft. Riley. It is run by very competent and professional active duty or retired senior NCO's. We have distances out to 400 meters. The range officers put up with zero games. We must show our post weapons registration, sign the log book, fix our own targets, move them to shooting table etc. They usually have 10-15 minute "hot times", blow the whistle, do the military clear on the left, clear on the right thing, range is now cold, go check targets. If at any time, you even get near the table when there are people downrange, you are asked to leave. Have only seen one "John Wayne" there in 18 years.

No burn the barrel firing, no waving handguns around. Everyone on line that is shooting is also a safety. Holler "cease fire", person being stupid gets talked to, once. In my mind, I can put up with the military system, knowing that we are relatively safe when on line. Glad I don't have to put up with some of the crap you guys have been chatting about.
 
#27 ·
man! I usually do a little slow fire accuracy work, but every now and again I do like to see how fast I can put 15 or 20 rounds of .45 COM...:wave:

most indoor ranges are not set up to allow engaging multiple targets:frown:

I know I don't get enough range time, but I will be going to the farm as soon as the temp gets back up into the thirties...:gah:

:danceban:
 
#28 ·
I frequent an outdoor unregulated range maintained by the conservaion dept. To be honest I've been reletively impressed by the behavior of other shooters there. I often go if I have a day off during the week and am the only one there. Every now and then a "ya-hoo" will show up who only wants to see how fast he can empty a 30round mag through his AK from the hip while his girlfriend video tapes for a youtube spot, but they are the exception and not the rule at this particular range.
 
#29 ·
Ya know what? I've noticed the same thing at the outdoor ranges run by Ohio Dept. of Natural Resources. I wonder why that is. The indoor public raanges around here are a nightmare.
 
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