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Quick change magazines.

2K views 42 replies 25 participants last post by  Ianthin 
#1 ·
It finally hit me that if I were in an extended gun battle and had to change magazines in a hurry it would be quicker if I count the number of rounds shot and reload while there is still one in the chamber. This might not be necessary in the type of pistol that locks open after the last shot but in my LCP it would save the extra step of having to rack a round into the chamber after reloading. I read a discussion about the number of rounds that would likely be needed if you are attacked. Somebody stated that the attacker would not stand still and allow himself to be shot more than once so you can count on missing maybe half of your shots. Take into account that you might need to shoot somebody two or three times to stop them from advancing. Three hits and three misses and you will probably be looking at another magazine soon especially if there is more than one attacker.
 
#2 ·
Woo buddy slow down .. Space it up ...

I have no idea what you are getting it ..

Dont bother to count shoots ... If you are really freaking out about this either NY reload or get a gun with a slide lock open .

I would think most bad guns dont want to get shot
 
#18 ·
Trying to "game" a gunfight would be a huge mistake, if there was ever a time and place to rely on the KISS principle, that's it.

Like joker1 and ghost tracker, all of my training as a LEO (until retirement a little over a year ago) was shooting to slide lock, reloading, and shooting some more. If there's a lull or the fight is over, swap your partial mag for a full one. We don't even train to drop when we reload anymore, train to reload on the move rather than become a stationary target.

Remember - "No battle plan ever survived first contact with the enemy."
 
#5 ·
^^^This. I haven't shot any matches, but at the indoor range I shoot at, the targets can run programs of turn-run-face to do shoot-no shoot training. I've used this to practice magazine changes. I started out counting shots, because like an LCP the 22 kit for my 226 doesn't lock open on the last shot, but eventually I didn't have to. I will shoot through 8 or 9 of the 10 rounds and swap mags before running empty without thinking about it.

So the lesson really is, don't panic, just practice.
 
#9 ·
Don't ever kid yourself and think you can have a defensive encounter all planned out. When things go south your rational analytical brain will practically shut down and your lizard brain will take over.
 
#10 ·
ExACTly Rammer. Lots of folks vex over the difference between a "speed", "tactical" and "emergency" mag swap. Rob (The "Great One") Leatham did a fine example of the difference between 'em for "American Handgunner" writer Jim Wilson. There's also a full explanation on the Gunsite website. Me? I think that EVERY gunfight is an EMERGENCY and am wasting none of my (limited) mental capacity on...trying to COUNT. I'll run 'em to slide lock, drop 'me to the ground, get BACK in the fray and collect & clean 'em all AFTER I've... survived the gunfight. :image035:
 
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#11 ·
if you expect to any way, shape, or form, ne in an "extended gun battle" - then your choice of an LCP as a primary defensive arm is a very poor choice. You should be carrying a braced AR pistol or other similar SBR in a patrol-type backpack.... probably body armor too. since I am really hoping the potential for this is not on American streets....

You are talking about (I believe) the difference between a "tactical reload" and an "emergency reload"
and yes, there are many instances when a "tactical reload" (reloading before the guns is dry) is a smart thing to do.

missing half your shots? since "there is a lawyer attached to every bullet" I sure hope I don't miss half my shots.... whoever said that as gospel truth is a fool, and anyone who believes it needs more training.
 
#12 ·
Bingo .. I keep a long gun in the car for this reason .. If I need more then 6 or 15 rounds or whatever .. Most likly

1. The russians have landed or
2. That pretty girl I just met well her daddy was a cartel leader

But really if your planning on a massive batel .. Buddy get a bigger gun and a long gun in the car
 
#13 ·
If I'm ever THAT SURE that a fight is coming, then I'm not...GOIN'! And if I'm forced to go, I'm taking a bunch of FWGs ("Friends With Guns) along to keep my candy-ass COMPANY! :image035:
 
#15 ·
A C.O. once commented that I "could track a ghost over moving water" after my backwoods, ******* beginnings helped trail a nefarious Central American hard-case in Nicaragua. That Latino boy had clearly NEVER watched Fess Parker as ..."Daniel Boone". :biggrin2:

The name just kinda'...stuck.
 
#17 ·
I've watch a lot of video clips when the cops get into it with the BG. It seems they reel off several shoots quickly. Most are probably caring 15 round mags. When your shooting a pocket pistol your not going to be able to go toe to toe with a bad guy that has a large capacity mag. Even if you can change one mag you are still behind.
 
#19 ·
exactly who are you planning to get in a gun fight with.... and counting rounds is more hollywood than anything. The slide locks back for a reason.... it screams " FEED ME SEYMOUR...."...... in Iraq we didnt count ammo. You shot until you needed to reload, and then shot some more.
 
#20 ·
So many people saying to not think ahead and consider "what if scenarios". No! I don't expect to be in an extended shoot out so I don't carry a high caliber weapon. This kind of reminds me of where somebody was talking about what type of ammo should be carried for self protection. It sounded like they want you to ask the attacker what he would prefer to be shot with. I was just saying that if I were attacked I would want to count my shots to make sure that I don't wind up with an empty gun if more shots are required. I don't know if some of these comments were supposed to be careless or maybe macho but I don't think they were very constructive. I said that I was shooting the LCP and the slide DOES NOT lock back. So if I were waiting for the slide to lock back I would be holding an empty gun for a long time.
 
#30 ·
So many people saying to not think ahead and consider "what if scenarios". No! I don't expect to be in an extended shoot out so I don't carry a high caliber weapon. This kind of reminds me of where somebody was talking about what type of ammo should be carried for self protection. It sounded like they want you to ask the attacker what he would prefer to be shot with. I was just saying that if I were attacked I would want to count my shots to make sure that I don't wind up with an empty gun if more shots are required. I don't know if some of these comments were supposed to be careless or maybe macho but I don't think they were very constructive. I said that I was shooting the LCP and the slide DOES NOT lock back. So if I were waiting for the slide to lock back I would be holding an empty gun for a long time.
GPT, I think you are over thinking this. If, you are attacked it will be up close in bad breath range. The odds are so great that it will be a coordinated attack with multiply attackers at a distance that the only plan would be to carry a squad rifle and you have said that is not what you are talking about.

So that drives us back to the bad breath range attack. Few attackers have the fortitude to continue to fight once the bullets start to fly. They want to live as much as you do, they just want your money and that is their day job. Do what you have to do to get ahead of the situation at hand and win. If you meet a person who does not care about being injured in an attack, a Glock 17 with a 33 round mag is not going to help you. They will keep coming until they no longer can and in that case, know your weapon, know your capabilities and understand its going to be violent and messy.
 
#22 ·
The truth is that almost no one in the world can accurately count their shots when they are in a REAL gunfight - and darned few can do it in realistic training scenarios: No matter how much prior training they have had or what kind it is.

Every time we went to defensive shooting school the rule was "if you think you need to reload, DO IT". They did not try to teach us to count our shots because "they" (the instructors) HAD BEEN in actual gun fights. Oh - and no one was using a mouse gun with only 6 or 7 rounds in it.
 
#28 ·
The truth is that almost no one in the world can accurately count their shots when they are in a REAL gunfight - and darned few can do it in realistic training scenarios: No matter how much prior training they have had or what kind it is.

Every time we went to defensive shooting school the rule was "if you think you need to reload, DO IT". They did not try to teach us to count our shots because "they" (the instructors) HAD BEEN in actual gun fights. Oh - and no one was using a mouse gun with only 6 or 7 rounds in it.
Something like "one potato, two potato, three potato, 4" might work. :scratchchin:

Extended gun battle with an Elsie P? A nightmare and one few will be able to survive. The gun is a last ditch up close and personal weapon, whether it's carried as a primary or BUG. An extended gun battle isn't going to happen at the cqb distance.
 
#23 ·
If you think your going to count rounds while receiving incoming . Best rethink that idea. Majority of SD is over in 3 or 4 shots, and just a few sec. This isn't a fire fight. I used tracers in Nam to let me know when mag was near empty and still run them dry many times .
 
#25 ·
If I am reloading ..... then there is more than 1 attacker or I'm really a bad shot that day .... 16 + 1 capacity, and have 2 extra mags.

Slap - release - pull trigger. That can happen pretty quickly.

I am not a 2 handed shooter, unless a situation is such I think I need it or there is a benefit. Way I learned, and that works well .... is 1) one handed shooter , and 2) while shooting (it's an automatic habit now) ... my other hand is grabbing a mag .... so it's all ready in my hand for reloading.

I don't empty the gun, and then reach for a magazine... it's already in my hand.
 
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#27 ·
I learned to count my shots years ago while target shooting, with large magazines it is easy to miss or add a few but I am usually pretty close, anything over about 15 and I would just be guessing (AR and such). Now, in a real shooting situation you can forget it.

I was talking to a Police Chief once (ex girlfriends dad) abd I asked how they knew when they had to reload, he said practice, then grinned and told me this story. He said when he was Captain there was a Sergeant training a rookie and they got a call about a man threatening his family with a gun. They showed up at the house, abd when they got ready to exit their car the BG let off a few rounds which hit the car, they responded with return fire. When they were asked how many rounds they fired the Sergeant said about seven, the rookie said she believed she emptied her gun. The Sergeant had fired ten rounds abd the rookie never took hers off safety.
True or not I don't know , but I believed it. :redface:
 
#29 ·
Having never had to use a firearm in self defense, I can only guess, but I doubt counting is going to go well for you if the need ever arises. You'll be fighting tunnel vision, trying to assess threats, and hopefully move somewhere were weapons from the bad guy cannot reach you. If you're carrying a micro pistol, empty will come faster, but if you train to put rounds on target under stress, you'll be a whole lot more prepared.

With your carry piece, you have to consider ease of carry vs capacity. Some could carry a Glock 17, some can't. Sometimes your situation warrants a smaller piece. I often use a Sig P938 for this purpose. It absolutely disappears. But that's 6+1 with the flush mag. Believe me, I've got 2 7 rounders with me as well. Most days it's either a Glock 19, with a 17 mag or two for backup, or an M&P40c with a 15 rounder for backup.

In any case, the operation is the same; use it until the threat is over. If you're empty, move, reload, and keep going until the threat is stopped.
 
#37 ·
OP-
It strikes me that your concern is that you won't recognize that you've run dry because your slide doesn't lock back after the last round. I can tell you from experience that people new to shooting autos or that have switched guns often don't realize they're empty even when the slide does lock back, they keep pulling the trigger wondering why the gun isn't firing then look at it to see what happened. That's when it dawns on them. I'd see it play out the same way over and over during training and quals and I see it at every match from less experienced shooters. If you spend enough time shooting your LCP you will learn to feel when the slide closes on the empty chamber, the same as I and others here have learned to know by feel when our slide has locked back, the feeling is distinct.

I suggest you practice recognizing that feeling by having someone else load your mags, varying the number of rounds in each. You work through them, picking randomly so that you won't know how many rounds are in the mag you choose. With practice you'll start to get a feel for when you fire that last round and when you need to reload. Also, consider using your gun in some IDPA matches, you'll be at a disadvantage competitively but it will help you learn to recognize when you're empty and practice reloading under the pressure of competition and the clock. The goal would be to learn something about your capabilities with your gun in a stressful situation. Nothing like a gunfight but the best you'll get as a civilian on short notice and for only $20 plus ammo.
 
#39 ·
One thing that I have noticed on here is that I seem to be the only one who hasn't been in a shoot out yet. At least my self awareness must be working for me. I really doubt if there have been ten of you who have been in shoot outs, not counting the service where the whole game would be different.
 
#40 ·
Many of us have been in combat against multiple opponents. I doubt any of us can imagine carrying a 380 into a fight fight and have any chance whatsoever of making it out of a meat grinder. Others do have some street experience, which gives insight to various degrees of liability based on weapon/s carried and numbers.
 
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