Wisdom that was imparted on me yesterday

This is a discussion on Wisdom that was imparted on me yesterday within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Yesterday I spent two hours visiting with a good friend that was a Level 4 Trauma surgeon for many years. Most of our visits have ...

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    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Wisdom that was imparted on me yesterday

    Yesterday I spent two hours visiting with a good friend that was a Level 4 Trauma surgeon for many years. Most of our visits have been at the gun range or talking guns. Yesterday, he was telling me about some of the things he saw over the years while treating gun shot victims, which he saw almost daily in the hospital where he worked.

    He mentioned some things I already knew but never considered before and this is not meant to start any wars with those that feel differently.

    1. Bullets do not travel a straight line once it enters a human torso. Once they enter the torso, they strike many things such as bones and other things that change their direction. Hence, a bullet entering at the sternum may exit in the throat, shoulder or stomach area.

    2. A smaller bullet such as a .22lr is more likely to be deflected once in the body. Larger calibers such as .45acp will break bones but still be somewhat deflected but give more shock value.

    3. All bleeding will eventually stop, either by medical intervention, natural wound closure or death (dead people do not bleed).

    4. The larger the caliber, the more higher the risk of death or cessation of movement. The smaller the caliber, the more difficult it is to find during medical treatment.

    5. Shot placement is always critical but some have bled to death before getting medical attention when a single round struck an artery in the thigh or other out of the normal target sites.

    6. A person dying from bleeding out can take hours to do so unless arteries are severed.

    Ironically our meeting yesterday was during a time when he was treating an open wound victim. I have known the man for many years and spent hours with him but we never had such talks about his profession or experiences. I assure everyone, we will have more of these talks.

    This guy knows firearms as he, his wife and eldest daughter shoot IDPA matches around the south.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Yesterday I spent two hours visiting with a good friend that was a Level 4 Trauma surgeon for many years. Most of our visits have been at the gun range or talking guns. Yesterday, he was telling me about some of the things he saw over the years while treating gun shot victims, which he saw almost daily in the hospital where he worked.

    He mentioned some things I already knew but never considered before and this is not meant to start any wars with those that feel differently.

    1. Bullets do not travel a straight line once it enters a human torso. Once they enter the torso, they strike many things such as bones and other things that change their direction. Hence, a bullet entering at the sternum may exit in the throat, shoulder or stomach area.

    2. A smaller bullet such as a .22lr is more likely to be deflected once in the body. Larger calibers such as .45acp will break bones but still be somewhat deflected but give more shock value.

    3. All bleeding will eventually stop, either by medical intervention, natural wound closure or death (dead people do not bleed).

    4. The larger the caliber, the more higher the risk of death or cessation of movement. The smaller the caliber, the more difficult it is to find during medical treatment.

    5. Shot placement is always critical but some have bled to death before getting medical attention when a single round struck an artery in the thigh or other out of the normal target sites.

    6. A person dying from bleeding out can take hours to do so unless arteries are severed.

    Ironically our meeting yesterday was during a time when he was treating an open wound victim. I have known the man for many years and spent hours with him but we never had such talks about his profession or experiences. I assure everyone, we will have more of these talks.

    This guy knows firearms as he, his wife and eldest daughter shoot IDPA matches around the south.
    Ask him to go further in detail about exactly what that means for us in bold. I've always been of the impression the 357 magnum was king of the hill for risk of death, not the 40 or 45acp. It would seem there's more to it than the larger the caliber the higher the risk of death or cessation when the 357 has been regarded as the best stopper in sd calibers for decades.

    Thanks
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    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Ask him to go further in detail about exactly what that means for us in bold. I've always been of the impression the 357 magnum was king of the hill for risk of death, not the 40 or 45acp. It would seem there's more to it than the larger the caliber the higher the risk of death or cessation when the 357 has been regarded as the best stopper in sd calibers for decades.

    Thanks
    Actually we did discuss this briefly yesterday. He likes the .357 round but made a couple of statements about it, one of which is that it is a great round but not as good as some others and it's effectiveness can depend on what type round is used. "His" thought pattern is the round is travelling so fast that expansion is hampered by speed somewhat and fragmentation is often not present with the .357 until after it has passed through the torso.

    Hopefully he an I will discuss this more during friendly conversations at the range. His caliber of choice for carry is the .40 but he says the .45acp in his opinion is the most effective. We disagree on his choice of brands. He carries a Glock model 22.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    Thanks for the info, it's brought new light as to how bullets travel once it has struck its target. My LEO buddy once told me he responded to a victim shot in the upper leg and was pronounced dead at the scene. He later found out that the bullet hit the femur and was deflected upwards and went through the victims heart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Actually we did discuss this briefly yesterday. He likes the .357 round but made a couple of statements about it, one of which is that it is a great round but not as good as some others and it's effectiveness can depend on what type round is used. "His" thought pattern is the round is travelling so fast that expansion is hampered by speed somewhat and fragmentation is often not present with the .357 until after it has passed through the torso.

    Hopefully he an I will discuss this more during friendly conversations at the range. His caliber of choice for carry is the .40 but he says the .45acp in his opinion is the most effective. We disagree on his choice of brands. He carries a Glock model 22.
    Interesting, can he clarify the part about pass throughs with 357 for us? Percentage that are pass throughs etc?

    thanks
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    I find it puzzling he thinks the .45 auto is most effective, yet his caliber of choice is a .40?
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    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    He also mentioned that reality often defies logic.

    We see each other 1-2 times a month on a friendly basis. I seldom see him in a professional setting. Yesterday was an exception.

    One of the tings we spent time discussing was bullets. He said people get shot often with small caliber rounds and do not know they have been hit. (I know this first hand since I was standing next to a guy hit with a .22 in the arm and it was several minutes before either of us knew he had been struck.) His opinion is that getting hit with a sledge hammer will get your attention quicker than being hit by a tack hammer.

    My personal experiences somewhat bear this out in that those I have went to the scene on having been hit with large calibers are crying for help more than those struck by smaller calibers. Those hit with smaller calibers are more likely to transport themselves to medical treatment and are often not on the scene when police arrive. I remember one guy I dealt with a couple years ago was hit in the back at his left shoulder with a single 9mm round. He took a city bus to the hospital for treatment and was back home while the police were still on the scene and the hospital had called the police there about a gunshot victim. He spoke with them there and then rode a bus back home and talked with those at the scene.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    VIP Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    Being a Competitive IDPA shooter He may have chosen .40 cal for its higher volume, or speed of reload. I wouldn't automatically assume what he thinks is most effective.

    My experience in what bullets do to flesh has all been in game animals and varmints. And it has mostly involved rifle rounds. The rules must change for higher velocity rifle rounds because they don't change direction much unless they break up against a large bone. and I look for bullets that don't break up for larger game. I very rarely recover a bullet, they normally pass right through. Varmint rounds do come apart And the bullets do make a mess of the insides! But I have still never seen one turn much more than a few degrees in a body. That may be due to a varmint having a thinner skin and bone. Or the speed of the round over a pistol round.

    I'm always interested in what Doctors that deal with this say . They probably see more than anything else. And are not prone to advertising hype.

    Thanks DR
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    Wisdom that was Imparted on you yesterday. If it was departed it wouldn't be there any longer.


    I know, I know......



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    Quote Originally Posted by spclopr8tr View Post
    I find it puzzling he thinks the .45 auto is most effective, yet his caliber of choice is a .40?
    Not puzzling at all. He likes the way the .40 handles when fired. He gets a few added rounds. less recoil and it fits his hand better. He owns a lot of guns (he can well afford them) and has some nice custom 1911 in .45acp but he enjoys carrying the Glock. He is also a realist in that he knows the potential for a face to face confrontation where the use of his firearm is next to nil, as it is with those of us here. We carry the gun of choice and the amount of ammo of choice for years and never need it. I have carried daily, both professionally and personally, since 1966 and only needed my sidearm three times to a degree where shots were fired. That means in 17,880 days, I needed the gun three times. Why not carry what one is comfortable with vs what would be a better choice.
    denclaste and dangerranger like this.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerranger View Post
    My experience in what bullets do to flesh has all been in game animals and varmints. And it has mostly involved rifle rounds. The rules must change for higher velocity rifle rounds because they don't change direction much unless they break up against a large bone. and I look for bullets that don't break up for larger game. I very rarely recover a bullet, they normally pass right through. Varmint rounds do come apart And the bullets do make a mess of the insides! But I have still never seen one turn much more than a few degrees in a body. That may be due to a varmint having a thinner skin and bone. Or the speed of the round over a pistol round. I'm always interested in what Doctors that deal with this say . They probably see more than anything else. And are not prone to advertising hype.

    Thanks DR
    One of the videos I have around here that I occasionally show for demonstration has a large pig carcass hanging from a limb. It is shot first with a 9mm and then replayed in slow motion. It is then shot with a .45acp and replayed in slow motion.

    In the 9mm hit, there is little indication of the hit. With the .45acp, there is a tremendous amount of shock waves that ripple though the entire carcass. This is not noticed until it is shown in very slow motion.

    There is more to caliber selection that most of us give attention to in our enjoyment of shooting. That is also natural since most of us would rather punch holes in paper than shooting live targets.
    dangerranger and ccw9mm like this.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoveman View Post
    Wisdom that was Imparted on you yesterday. If it was departed it wouldn't be there any longer.


    I know, I know......


    Booze does that to me.

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    Sounds like a very interesting fellow to talk with. Keep us up dated.
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    Being a trauma surgeon with regular IPSC/firearms experience likely gives him a solid grounding in what does and doesn't happen. Probably a fount of wisdom, if he could communicate all of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spclopr8tr View Post
    I find it puzzling he thinks the .45 auto is most effective, yet his caliber of choice is a .40?
    It means that everything is a trade off, which is something we all, most likely, already realize. There is no "best" pistol caliber for stopping bipeds; capacity is a trade off for projectile diameter, velocity is a trade off for projectile weight. Muzzle rise, controlability, weight, size, yada, yada, yada.

    Carry what you feel comfortable with. Carry what you're accurate with. Carry what allows you to bring that sucker every time you step out the door without objecting to its size, weight, whatever... Any firearm you have the capacity to deploy in defense of your life is the firearm that may save your life. Nobody actually concerns themselves with the cartridge choice of the firearm being shot at them.
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