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Would like 1911 frame ID

2K views 42 replies 9 participants last post by  PAcanis 
#1 ·
Does anyone know whose serial numbers would start "FLO"?
I've never ran into that series before, but it appears to be a newer 1911 and is commander size with a Colt slide.
 
#6 ·
Yeah, that ain't a Colt receiver, with the serial number in that location. Last time Colt placed the serial there, was on the very early Commercial Government Models, below serial C2250.
 
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#8 ·
If it's F-L-ZERO (and not O) it's a mid '80s Colt (early in the run) that's just in mint condition. If it is actually F-L-O it could be part of a rebuild from a non-military government contract pistol that came from the State of Florida, maybe as a component from a machine shop, and not a model/full-pistol provider. FLO is the Government MAK Code for Florida, and it would stand to reason that if it was a reframed pistol (built around an ordered frame) in a non-military, government armory they would order it with that MAK code if there wasn't one for a specific manufacturer. Just a theory, but I think it tracks.



https://cryptome.org/0003/fbi-gun-codes.pdf
 
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#10 ·
I didn't call Colt. And I haven't looked in their serial# book that's in my vehicle, but it doesn't show up in their online look up.

My buddy picked it up and was told he was buying an "accurized" Colt Commander, but I was suspect if it's a Colt frame and just thought I'd ask.
 
#13 ·
It sure looks like the serial number was an afterthought.
Supposedly the shop down the road from me "accurized" it... and they've been known to polish the numbers right off of a frame, then have them lasered back on. The fact that it's painted makes me think it was done recently, but I've never seen a slide stop like that, so I thought it might be older.
Basically I'm confused as heck, lol.
 
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#15 ·
I'm guessing my friend got taken then. It's a shop I won't go to anymore because of certain things.
I'm positive he was told it was a Colt, or they withheld that information from him. He only buys Colts now. I can't see him buying it unless he only paid 400 for it if he knew it wasn't a Colt.

Not to mention all the screws are buggered up and it looks like the front sight was put on using a steel drift.
 
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#17 ·
I doubt they could remove all they had to remove, repair it, laser cut the serial number, and then finish it like that so you couldn't tell. Maybe they could if it's painted, but to what end? Seems like a ton of work, good work, for no good reason. I'm going to stick with my theory that it's from some government agency that ordered a lot of frames only from a Florida machine shop and ordered them MAK stamped. Maybe they put the Colt slide on it, and maybe they sold the frames at some point and someone else built it, but that's the only think I can think of. That would mean there's a record of it somewhere. If you could find that providence it might actually make the pistol worth more, but good luck finding it. I think you'd need to get the FBI in on it, because they're the ones who generated the MAK system.

If so, what non-military government agency employed commander length pistols?
 
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#18 ·
Could be Jaeger. It's an oddball for sure.

I was thinking too that maybe somebody churned out a bunch or frames that is no longer in business. Or maybe they made them for someone else that went out of business.
But like you said, who puts Colt slides on aftermarket frames? You only see that with gov't models that I'm aware of.
 
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#19 ·
Calling it a Franken gun isn't necessarily a cut at all. It might be a fully awesome pistol, but if bought as an "accurized Colt", or anything other than a colt slide on a non-Colt frame there has to have been a wee bit of fraud involved.

It's an interesting mystery. If you or your friend dig down and find out with the real skinny is I'd love to know.

I bought Colt Army Special with a barrel that said DA .41. Gave me fits. As far as I could determine it was re-barreled around the turn of the century with an older, longer, incorrect barrel. It was simply done so long ago the patina on frame and barrel perfectly match. I paid too much for a Franken wheel gun, but in the end I like shooting it and reloading the .41s, so I ended up happy, and I knew from the outset I couldn't identify what exactly it was.

That said, the guy didn't try to sell me a minty Army Special in .41 and claim the incorrect roll marks were some rarity. He hadn't a clue, and I took a chance. I'm probably down $150, but still happy.
 
#21 ·
I think chances are good that it's a Taurus 1911 frame. :yup:

If my MIMory serves me correctly Taurus 1911 frames are/were stamped in that exact location and with various assorted letter prefixes.

But, I never was much interested in Taurus anything so I am far from being 100% certain.

Somebody popped a Colt top-end onto a Bull bottom which is a crime against humanity in and of itself. :biggrin2:
 
#23 ·
I think you hit the rusty nail on the head!
I just looked at a bunch of Tauri (?) and none are marked 'cept for that serial number that starts with three letters.
I'll bet it's stamped inside the frame like a SA Milspecs are (besides their outer rollmark).

He's gonna poop if that's the case.
:rofl:
 
#22 ·
I'm with Jaeger on this one - it's certainly not a Colt receiver but does it work? Does it shoot bullets and not fail?

If he didn't get taken too bad, if the cost is reasonable, then what the heck, take it to the range and make it work.
 
#25 ·
Maybe somebody here that owns a Taurus can chime in and say if there are any identifying marks inside the frame, under the grips or where ever, but yes, I'd bet money it's a Taurus frame. Even if it was re-serialized, what are the odds they would use the exact font and put it in the exact location as a known Taurus?

He's bringing it back over tomorrow when he picks up his Defender from me. I'm going to pull the grips off, field strip it and have a looksee. He paid way too much for it, IMO. I'm sure he didn't know it wasn't a Colt framed pistol. Like I said before, it's all he buys. He's gotten rid of all his 1911's that aren't Colts. Didn't even want a milsurp 1911 unless it was an actual Colt.
 
#31 ·
Well, it's a Colt

Hard to figure why whoever re-serialized it used Taurus' font and frame location, but it became apparent why it needed re-serialized once I got the cheaters out and looked more closely at it.
Trigger

Takes fluff and buff to a new meaning.

Notice the grip screw bushing? No shoulders. That would explain the loose grips once I broke the screws loose.
And the ejector looked like it was put in by a monkey. Hammer marks all over it. They used a solid pin, too. First time I've seen that.

Anyway, mystery solved, but I still think he paid too much for it at 750.
 
#32 ·
Hard to figure why whoever re-serialized it used Taurus' font and frame location, but it became apparent why it needed re-serialized once I got the cheaters out and looked more closely at it.
View attachment 122785
Takes fluff and buff to a new meaning.

Notice the grip screw bushing? No shoulders. That would explain the loose grips once I broke the screws loose.
And the ejector looked like it was put in by a monkey. Hammer marks all over it. They used a solid pin, too. First time I've seen that.

Anyway, mystery solved, but I still think he paid too much for it at 750.
Wow, what a mess, I'd love to know who did it.
I really have to wonder if it would pass BATFE muster, with the factory serial number defaced.
 
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#35 ·
ATF Interpretation as rendered in ATF Ruling 2009-5 would seem to say that the person who modified the frame did so illegally. Without copying the whole ruling, which is relatively short, only four pages, here is a link.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55476/download

If you want to get down into the weeds, here are the references the ruling was based upon:

18 U.S.C. 923(i): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
26 U.S.C. 5842(a): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
27 CFR 478.92(a): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
27 CFR 478.92(a)(4)(i): ALTERNA
TE MEANS OF IDENTIFICATION
27 CFR 479.102(a): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
27 CFR 479.102(c): ALTERNATE
MEANS OF IDENTIFICATION
ATF authorizes licensed manufacturers
who perform a manufacturing process on
firearms for, or on behalf of, another license
d manufacturer not to place their serial
numbers and other required identification ma
rkings on the firearms, provided such
firearms already have been properly marked
with a serial number and other identifying
markings as required by
27 CFR 478.92(a) and 479.102(a) a
nd that all of the other
requirements stated in this ruling have been met.

Sometimes its best not to ask a question to which we probably know the answer? In my non-official opinion, the work performed on the frame was illegal and as such the firearm would be subject to confiscation and destruction as a defaced firearm.
 
#36 ·
Good God.

Can your friend return it for a refund? I have a Colt M1911 that had it's serial number removed sometime in it's past, and a new one was later applied by the BATF. I was told (whether correctly or not I don't know) it is against the law to deface them period, was told that by the ATF and the late Bill Adair that did the restoration.

 
#38 ·
Unless it actually is a government contract gun, which I now doubt, I agree as well. He needs to take it back, get some providence, and have the gun store make sure this is a legal firearm. If it isn't they're the ones who need to make it legal, and it IS their problem, because they may have sold an illegal gun, which is on their FFL.
 
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#39 ·
I remember that if a factory serial number needed to be removed or obliterated in the course of an extensive refinishing or restoration. ..the exact serial number needed to be re-stamped and the ATF specified the depth and the height of the letters/numerals of the replaced serial number.

At least that is the way it was at one point in time in the past. That may have changed these days.

That Colt receiver must have originally been unbelievably rusted and pitted. So somebody decided to. ."melt" the frame and grind the crap out the rest of it.

Absolutely abysmal job. I just wonder how pitted it is internally?

Whoever did the work on that frame should be totally embarrassed.

Looking on the bright side, at least it's a forged frame. Whatever is left of it. :biggrin2:

If whoever owns it is stuck with it they should have a
proper. "Melt" job done on it and go for Satin Nickel.

It needs a good reworking to make it livable.
 
#40 ·
I remember that if a factory serial number needed to be removed or obliterated in the course of an extensive refinishing or restoration. ..the exact serial number needed to be re-stamped and the ATF specified the depth and the height of the letters/numerals of the replaced serial number.
About the same thing I was told by Bill, BUT, the new serial number stamping HAD to be applied before the old one was removed (even at that, Bill wouldn't do it on my pistol.)
 
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