This anti has it right, but for the wrong reasons.

This anti has it right, but for the wrong reasons.

This is a discussion on This anti has it right, but for the wrong reasons. within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The following was a letter to the editor in our Minneapolis Star Tribune, a very anti newspaper. "CONCEALED-CARRY Follow NYC's example Claiming that the concealed-carry ...

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Thread: This anti has it right, but for the wrong reasons.

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    This anti has it right, but for the wrong reasons.

    The following was a letter to the editor in our Minneapolis Star Tribune, a very anti newspaper.

    "CONCEALED-CARRY

    Follow NYC's example

    Claiming that the concealed-carry law prevents crime ("Concealed-carry law; it's working," April 7), a letter writer asks, "how many crimes have been prevented by the knowledge that an armed citizen might be nearby?"

    I would suggest, however, that allowing ordinary citizens to "pack heat" Dodge City-style may not be the best way to reduce crime.

    New York City has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation, with zero tolerance for concealed weapons, yet, with half the per capita murder rate of Minneapolis, it has been rated one of the safest large cities in the United States by the FBI.

    We could learn from New York City's example.


    JOYCE DENN, WOODBURY"


    New York's crime rate did not fall because of their gun laws which had been in effect since 1911, called the Sullivan Act, and had done nothing up to that point. NY's crime rate declined because Rudi Giuliani cracked down on law breakers and enforced exsisting laws. I am not a big fan of Rudi's mind you on other issues but this he seemed to do well with. He is not a 2A proponent so I will not be voting for him.

    Concealed carry does tend to bring down the crime rate after a certain percentage of the population starts carrying. I don't believe we are anywhere near that percentage yet here in MN. The effect is rarely immediate. Also crime's outcome often changes for the better, but it still falls into the crime category. Take the following case as an example:


    Pregnant wife of store owner shoots would-be robber
    kare11.com

    A woman who pretended to have a gun while trying to rob a convenience store on St. Paul's East Side was shot by the store owner's pregnant wife.

    A family member identified the clerk as Susana Khalil. She does not normally tend the Super USA store, owned by her husband Joseph Kalil. But her husband's cousin, George Elbassar, says Joseph ran out to do an errand Saturday evening, leaving Susana and their 2-year-old daughter on their own.

    Police say that's when a woman, acting as if she had a gun inside a paper bag, tried to rob the store.

    "She came behind the counter and tussled with Susana, who's 9 months pregnant," Elbassar said.

    Elbassar said Susana was forced to use a gun her husband kept behind the counter.

    "She did what she had to do to protect her kid and the kid in her stomach too," Elbassar said.

    The robbery suspect was shot near the collarbone and was in stable condition at Regions Hospital Saturday night. Police have not released her name.

    Susana Khalil was treated for minor injuries. Elbassar says she will be getting an ultrasound to make sure her unborn baby was not injured. In the meantime, he says she is very upset about the shooting.

    "Nobody wants anybody to get hurt, but when you are pushed against a wall, you are going to defend yourself," Elbassar said.

    By Julianna Olsen, KARE 11 News

    A crime was still committed however the criminal was stopped and possible deadly consequences were averted by the victim's use of a gun for self defense. So, do you count this as a "crime went down" statistic? Not really but the result was excellent because the victim protected herself and her children, (both born and unborn), with a gun. The criminal is captured so she will hopefully be unable to commit more crimes in the future. This will happen if they use the Giuliani method of punishing criminals, not making up new laws. How do you put her uncommitted crimes into a statistic? You canít but her being behind bars does reduce future crime.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
    NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
    Utah Permit Certified Instructor


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Claiming that the concealed-carry law prevents crime ("Concealed-carry law; it's working," April 7), a letter writer asks, "how many crimes have been prevented by the knowledge that an armed citizen might be nearby?"
    Well, that is hard to prove, or keep track of, but let's just imagine if one of the crime victims in the following crime spree had stopped these guys, the remainder of the victims would still be alive. That shouldn't be to hard for anyone to believe. But then they don't call them for nothing, right.

    The whole story Here

    The time line
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

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    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Mistake to debate CCW and overall crime rate

    I think it is a serious mistake for pro CCW people to engage in a debate with an anti about whether CCW decreases the crime rate. To do so assumes that CCW is only justified if it does lower the crime rate, and is not justified if the crime rate goes up.

    CCW is justified by the Second Amendment, which says nothing about crime rates. It is the right of US citizens to keep and bear arms, regardless of crime rates. To engage in a debate about crime rates takes us down the wrong road. It is also very difficult, if not impossible, to correlate a local crime rate with CCW, when there must be 100 other factors influencing crime rate at the same time, such as police effectiveness, criminal sentences, the economy, demographics, drug use, etc. How can you isolate one factor, CCW, and say that it is causing an increase or decrease in crime rate, independent of all the other factors?

    Personally, I carry a concealed handgun because it may save me from harm some day. I don't carry it to lower the city's crime rate, but to lower chances that one person - me - will be a crime victim. I'm not trying to improve society, but to protect myself.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    pogo2, excellent post!

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    I agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by pogo2 View Post
    I think it is a serious mistake for pro CCW people to engage in a debate with an anti about whether CCW decreases the crime rate. To do so assumes that CCW is only justified if it does lower the crime rate, and is not justified if the crime rate goes up.

    CCW is justified by the Second Amendment, which says nothing about crime rates. It is the right of US citizens to keep and bear arms, regardless of crime rates. To engage in a debate about crime rates takes us down the wrong road. It is also very difficult, if not impossible, to correlate a local crime rate with CCW, when there must be 100 other factors influencing crime rate at the same time, such as police effectiveness, criminal sentences, the economy, demographics, drug use, etc. How can you isolate one factor, CCW, and say that it is causing an increase or decrease in crime rate, independent of all the other factors?

    Personally, I carry a concealed handgun because it may save me from harm some day. I don't carry it to lower the city's crime rate, but to lower chances that one person - me - will be a crime victim. I'm not trying to improve society, but to protect myself.
    Somehow here in MN anti's latched onto the idea that we gun folks said the crime rate would go down if our improved carry law was passed. That is not so! Some people said it might, eventually, but nobody to my knowledge guaranteed this. There have been a few editorials that claimed this decrease has not happed yet so the anti's, of which the Star Tribune can be counted as one, have latched onto this idea. We have been trying to dissuade them since.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
    NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
    Utah Permit Certified Instructor

  6. #6
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    Thumbs up Great points...

    Quote Originally Posted by pogo2 View Post
    I think it is a serious mistake for pro CCW people to engage in a debate with an anti about whether CCW decreases the crime rate. To do so assumes that CCW is only justified if it does lower the crime rate, and is not justified if the crime rate goes up.

    CCW is justified by the Second Amendment, which says nothing about crime rates. It is the right of US citizens to keep and bear arms, regardless of crime rates. To engage in a debate about crime rates takes us down the wrong road. It is also very difficult, if not impossible, to correlate a local crime rate with CCW, when there must be 100 other factors influencing crime rate at the same time, such as police effectiveness, criminal sentences, the economy, demographics, drug use, etc. How can you isolate one factor, CCW, and say that it is causing an increase or decrease in crime rate, independent of all the other factors?

    Personally, I carry a concealed handgun because it may save me from harm some day. I don't carry it to lower the city's crime rate, but to lower chances that one person - me - will be a crime victim. I'm not trying to improve society, but to protect myself.
    I agree, well stated...

    ret
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    Wow Pogo that was almost erotic!
    Timmy Jimmy

    If it is not in the US Constitution then the Federal Government should not be doing it.

    "Carrying a gun is a social responsibility."

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