TRUE SHOOTING ~ Read & Comment Please

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Thread: TRUE SHOOTING ~ Read & Comment Please

  1. #1
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    TRUE SHOOTING ~ Read & Comment Please

    From Officer Steve Lang of the Murrieta Police Dept. Ca

    "I was involved in an on duty shooting (gun battle ) with a suspect at a distance of about six feet. He was armed with a Sig P220 .45 cal and I had a Glock mod 21, 45 cal. He fired nine rounds and I fired 13. He was hit seven times and I was hit once. He was hit in the chest, forearm, both shins. thigh and both knees. As I fired at this idiot, I remember becoming concerned that my rounds were having such little affect on this guy. Although I saw every time he was hit, it caused the front of his muzzle to jerk and move off target (me). Granted my hits could have been better but I was a little busy trying to shoot and move at the same time....there was alot going on and I'll write about that later....

    As it turns out, the bullets basically blew up into small fragments completely coming apart as they entered his body. The round I was carrying was Corbon 185 grn HP plus P. This guy survived. As much as I hate to say it, even Hardball would have killed him.

    I called the company and spoke to the President of Corbon (Peter Pi) who told me, " Hmmmm, well we've never had that problem before, I don't really know what to say. Maybe it hit bone or something". .....Well,..... alrighty then!

    Before this shooting, I bought in to their product and was a champion of their cause and carried it on duty for years. This stuff was garbage and could not have performed worse. This company tauts itself as being on the cutting edge in its field with proven results. I've got all the proof I need."

    Click Here For The Entire Story
    Click & read the entire story...I grabbed this off of GLOCKTALK
    Last edited by QKShooter; March 21st, 2005 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Correct a Few Spelling Errors
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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    hum not good but why would ya carry a 185 +p instead of a 230 not sure what else to say excpet i guess the wonder bullet didnt work

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    Bud

    At first "read" it sounds like he really peppered this guy.
    Well, the bottom line is he had one hit to the chest & if that one COM hit (by fateful chance) misses everything vital/fatal then the BG could easily keep on coming with multiple hits to the forearm/shin extremities etc. ~ with any bullet weight.
    He said: "As much as I hate to say it, even Hardball would have killed him."
    I sure am not too very sure about that statement either.
    A hardball "breezer" through the chest area would probably not have faired much better than Corbon.
    Hardball ammo might have broken some forearm, knee & shin bones which sure might have slowed up the rate of "return fire" a bit.
    I'm still sticking with my Gold Dot Hollow points & I'll bank on (hopefully) better shot placement.
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  5. #4
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    Murrieta officer tells jury about 2001 gunbattle

    I've posted the whole article so we don't lose it when the story leaves their website.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Murrieta Police Corporal Steve Lang describes in court the events of the night he was shot.

    By: JOHN HALL - Staff Writer

    RIVERSIDE ---- A ferocious gunbattle was detailed for jurors Wednesday by a Murrieta police officer who was shot in the leg during the October 2001 confrontation. Cpl. Steve Lang described seeing various colors flash from the gun's muzzle as the man he was chasing on usually quiet Dartanian Place turned and fired at him from about 5 or 6 feet away.

    "I couldn't believe this guy's shooting at me," Lang said, adding that he quickly returned fire with his first shot coming about the same time the man fired his second.

    "He's shooting, I'm shooting," Lang said. "I could tell I was hitting him. I knew I was hitting him."

    The man accused of exchanging gunfire with the veteran officer was Toan Quoc Van, who is among four alleged Asian gang members standing trial on charges that could send them to prison for life should they be convicted.

    Van, 30, of Santa Ana, along with Giang Kien Huynh, 32, of El Monte; Khoi Van Phan, 28, of Hollywood; and Nelson Wynn, 35, of San Gabriel, face charges that include conspiracy to rob an inhabited dwelling and attempted murder of a peace officer.

    The four men are accused of attempting a home-invasion robbery at a residence on Bayonne Place, a cul-de-sac next to the one where Lang and Van traded shots.

    Prosecutors also allege that Huynh fired at a second Murrieta officer, John Nelson, but neither man was hit.

    A 911 call from a couple on Dartanian Place around 2 a.m. Oct. 5, 2001, brought police officers to the neighborhood and quashed the robbery before it could happen, prosecutors say.

    The wife testified Tuesday that she became suspicious after seeing a group of men show up on her street in two vehicles with no headlights on, then walk around the corner toward Bayonne Place.

    Two of the men were quickly detained as the first officers arrived minutes after the 911 call and Lang stayed on Dartanian Place to guard them as three other officers went to check for more suspects.

    A short time later, a man running from the officers on Bayonne jumped a fence and ran toward Lang. Lang said he started chasing the man, later identified as Van. Lang told jurors the man had his right hand in his front waistband area as he fled.

    "I remember thinking this guy's trying to make me think he's got a gun," Lang said, later adding that he didn't believe he actually had a weapon.

    The man turned and fired, according to Lang's testimony. Lang said he fired about a dozen shots from his .45-caliber semiautomatic weapon during the exchange with Van.

    "I wanted to get as many rounds off at this person to get him to stop shooting me," he said.

    Lang said as the shooting started, many things ran through his mind.

    "I was thinking this is a bad place to be, standing right in front of him," he said. "I was wondering if it was going to hurt."

    Lang told jurors he figured he was going to be hit by a bullet since the two were so close and he had nothing to hide behind. So he dove to the ground, still firing at Van, he said.

    "I thought if I stayed there, I'd be killed," Lang told jurors.

    Knowing he was firing over and over again at the man, Lang said, "It was amazing to me he wasn't going down. At some point, he started to wither and go to the ground."

    It was then that Lang says he was hit by a shot. The bullet entered, then exited his right inner thigh about four inches above his knee. Lang described the pain as being like someone taking a red-hot fireplace poker and sticking it through his leg.

    He saw blood from his leg running down the driveway where was laid and he wondered how badly he'd been hit. As he lay there, shot, Lang said he started screaming

    Supervising Deputy District Attorney John Monterosso asked him what he was screaming.

    "About every profanity I can think of," Lang said, which brought nervous laughter from some of the jurors.

    Lang testified that he thought the gunman who laid near him on the driveway was dead, but then he saw him try to raise himself up on his elbows.

    "So I fired two more shots at him," Lang told jurors. Monterosso asked him to explain why he fired those last two shots.

    "I was afraid he'd get back up and shoot me," Lang said, adding that he was immobile at that point because of the gunshot wound to his leg.

    It was after those last two shots that Lang knew he had fired all the rounds from his weapon. He then replaced the empty magazine with a fresh one. Lang estimates it was about five to 10 seconds from the time the shooting started to when both he and Van were on the ground and the gunfire had ended.

    Lang recalled, as he lay there shot, how quiet it was. It had been a "loud, pretty vicious gun fight," he said.

    "Not a light came on. It was dead quiet in that cul-de-sac," he said.

    Lang said he then radioed to his dispatch that he had been shot and that the suspect was presumably dead. The prosecutor asked him if he recognized the man who shot him as being in the courtroom Wednesday. He glanced toward the four men sitting in a line and identified Van.

    Van craned his neck to see photographs taken in a hospital emergency room showing the damage to Lang's leg as the prosecutor asked Lang about the injury.

    Lang said he still has no feeling in his leg from above the knee to his ankle and told jurors he was unable to work for about six weeks, spending about a month of that time on crutches.

    During his questioning of Lang, Van's attorney, John Cotsirilos, had Lang demonstrate in front of the jury box how close his client and the officer were as the shooting happened. Jurors stood to get a closer look as the attorney also removed his suit jacket and laid on the courtroom floor while Lang describe how Van was laying after being shot. Lang also laid down in front of the jury box at the attorney's request to show where he was on the ground when shot in the leg.

    The woman whose home was the alleged target of the robbery that morning also testified Wednesday.

    Kim Tran identified defendant Nelson Wynn as a man who sold her a cellular phone on Aug. 23, 2000, at a Westminster store. She also identified a contract Monterosso showed her as the one she entered into with Page Tek for the phone. The contract listed Tran's name and business address, as well as her home and business telephone numbers.

    Wynn's attorney, Virginia Blumenthal, pointed out that her home address was not on the contract, which she signed more than a year before the alleged robbery attempt. Tran testified that she and her husband had about $10,000 cash and $50,000 in jewelry at the home the night the men were arrested.

    She told jurors that, being from Vietnam, she is among those who lost money in banks when Saigon fell to communism. She said she would typically keep large amounts of money and jewelry in her home instead of a bank.

    Contact staff writer John Hall at (951) 676-4315, Ext. 2628, or jhall@californian.com.
    Bumper
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    "I wanted to get as many rounds off at this person to get him to stop shooting me," is an odd statement to me. I don't want to make any judgements on the officer since it sounded like a hell of a fight, but if I'm shooting at someone I would think your unconscious mind would be directing fire to the third button on his shirt.

    Glad the officer made it out alive, too bad the BG did....
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    Red face

    Made me wonder about mixing up a mag load...HP and Ball mix....just to be sure.

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    Thanks Bumper

    First of all let me say that I am always happy when the good guys win & a Police Officer stays alive.
    Basically (being polite) and speaking with respect to this LEO we have (what boils down to) a quick Spray & Pray (bullets flying everywhere) scenario here.
    I'm not sure that any ammo variety or bullet weight or bullet configuration would have helped much in this situation.
    Also...when did the chest hit to the BG occur? ~ Early on...or was it one of the very last shots fired? We might never know.
    It is possible that all of the earlier shots fired by the officer were hits to the extremities.
    At the very LEAST...one thing that the average carry citizen can learn from this is to always carry a Cell Phone.
    Please get one and always carry it if you do not already own one!
    "Not a light came on. It was dead quiet in that cul-de-sac," he said.
    If you are ever involved in a defensive firefight and by chance are hit...Do Not count on your average frightened Sheeple to render ANY assistance or to even call 911.
    You absolutely need to be able to call for your own medical assistance.
    Please always remember that.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    "Not a light came on. It was dead quiet in that cul-de-sac," he said.
    If you are ever involved in a defensive firefight and by chance are hit...Do Not count on your average frightened Sheeple to render ANY assistance or to even call 911.
    You absolutely need to be able to call for your own medical assistance.
    Please always remember that.
    You also have to remember that "joining" a firefight like that could get you mistaken for another BG. Not a good situation to get into.

    Sitting here thinking about it, I'm not sure what I'd do. (Turning on the lights wouldn't be something I'd do.)

    Now a 911 to report shot fired, or officer down, that is anothe whole ball of wax!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    rstickle ~ Good Comment!

    I don't think I would run right out into the middle of this one either.
    If I looked out & saw a patrol car & then heard multiple shots fired...I sure would be on the doggone phone though.
    I personally would absolutely risk helping any downed/shot police officer.
    There are some common sense ways to help insure NOT getting plugged as a possible BG.
    Exactly how I would handle it would depend on the situation.
    I sure would not stay inside and watch a wounded LEO bleed to death through my window.
    I can state that for sure.
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    The first thing that struck me about this story is the fact that the BG fired 9 shots. That means he started with a loaded mag plus one in the chamber. And in a Sig 220 to boot. This shooter was not your average gang banger.

    But, even with his seeming expertise in choice of weapon and carrying fully loaded, he only got one hit on the officer (thank God). So much for lack of marksmanship under pressure. He probably doesn't participate in any of the speed shooting games...

    Initially, I was impressed with the officer hitting the BG seven times out of 13 shots. Under extreme stress, at that close range, I think that's phenomenal. Then I thought, "why didn't he aim a little higher"? Was he just trying to "wound him" or cut his legs down so the BG couldn't run. I doubt it. He says there was one hit to the chest, but we don't know it was COM. Even with hardball, or any other type of "magic bullet", I don't think hits to the knees and shins will be lethal within 30 seconds.

    Not making a judgement about the officer, or his story, it seems to me, based on the info presented, that he is unjustly blaming the ammo for his inability to stop the BG immediately. I suspect if half of those 7 hits were COM the BG would have been stopped. And stopped permanently. No trial.

    Just MHO.

    And, I hope I never get into that type of situation. I'm not sure I would have had the presence of mind to hit the ground.

    Good shooting.....deadeye.
    Last edited by deadeye; March 21st, 2005 at 12:26 PM. Reason: mis-remembered number of hits on BG

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    Fascinating case. I wondered whether in fact the drop to ground pretty much (under stress) forced his aim to be biased low - and thus all those lower extremity hits.

    Hard to judge from the calm of a keyboard - as ever - these things go down fast - real fast. I am amazed, as well as relieved, the cop only took one hit - six feet distance is close - real close.
    Chris - P95
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    I think the "I wanted to get as many rounds off at this person to get him to stop shooting me" comment has some indication of the police officer's mindset at the time. He might benefit by some additional training in shooting under stress. I'm glad he made it through that fiasco.

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    I am not an LEO or do I play one on T.V. but wouldn't you want to grab your shotgun on this call? I would think the shotgun would have been a better weapon than a pistol? Any thoughts on this?

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    Thumbs up 12 Gauge

    Thought # 1
    Yes, 12 Gauge to both knees would obviously have been slightly more effective.

    Thought #2
    Never judge a Bad Guy by the quality of his weapon since they will take whatever stolen or hot weapon they get...off the streets.

    Thought #3
    I remember (on another forum) when I was stongly criticized/blasted for my "heartless" comments concerning the extremely poor marksmanship of some gun store employees during the course of an armed robbery.
    I'll keep it short & sweet.
    The final outcome of the "multiple traded shots" shooting that ensued was... one innocent passerby on the other side of the street being hit. And....And...And...One Bad Guy was later caught after he was shot in the doggone foot!
    Well, I sure as heck don't know exactly how I would react in any immediate firefight scenario but if I could draw & fire & only get one shot off ~ it sure as Hell would not be at heel/toe level!
    I believe that the gun shop employees opened fire first.
    I have been attacked/"turned upon" by 4 legged wild beasts (as opposed to the 2 legged variety) & they sure outweighed your average BG by about 700+ pounds & I sure did not totally spazz out and opt for a "Front Paw Shot"
    Just my opinion.
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    I would think under the stress of shooting and getting shot the natural reaction is to pull the trigger which results in low shots. Perhaps the BG only got one round to hit the officer in the leg because of pulling the trigger. Waiting for the screams of but the officer is trained to handle this situation under stress etc. Yes, of course he is. I read about a MA state police LT who devised a stress program for improving his troops ability under stress to come out alive. I understand MA State Police have an excellant shoot under stress program. Just my .02....
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