You don't have to be stupid to be a moron

You don't have to be stupid to be a moron

This is a discussion on You don't have to be stupid to be a moron within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Or as Bugs Bunny would say, "What a maroon!" This guy may be talking about some people some of the time, but he's not talkin ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    You don't have to be stupid to be a moron

    Or as Bugs Bunny would say, "What a maroon!"

    This guy may be talking about some people some of the time, but he's not talkin about all people all the time. If you're sittin' tight and waiting for a shooter to come to you, you're probably better prepared. If you've got a whit of self control from target practice, military service or hunting, even better.

    http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/114367

    Armed is not the same as safer

    Douglas K. Lindner

    Lindner is associate professor of electrical and computer engineering at Virginia Tech.


    The recent shootings at Virginia Tech have prompted several gun advocates to suggest that the citizenry would be safer if more people carried a gun. I am not a gun advocate, and for the past several years I have been involved in a research project to incorporate the latest technology into a sniper rifle.

    This work has been funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency and the U.S. Army. When a soldier encounters combat, the physiological shock induces instantaneous physiological changes. In a stressful situation the adrenaline spikes, the heart races, the breathing becomes rapid and erratic, and the muscles twitch. These physiological effects degrade the shooters' ability to hit the targets at which they aim.

    That is to say, the shooters could easily hit someone they are not aiming at. (The research project is developing technology that would mitigate these effects on the point of aim.) This physiological response to combat stress is well known to the army and documented in the open literature.

    In fact, the army spends millions of dollars and devotes hundreds of hours of training to overcome the body's natural response to stress. I imagine police departments also engage in this training. The training is only partially successful.

    I believe that gun advocates are sincere in their desire to make the public safer. I believe that if you go with them to a pistol range, on a sunny Sunday afternoon after a good night's sleep, they could demonstrate a remarkable proficiency with their guns.

    However, most, if not all, confrontational situations do not occur when expected, or under ideal conditions, or when the intended victim is alert and ready to respond. Based on the experience of professionals, I reasonably conclude that an armed citizenry, untrained and unpracticed in life-threatening situations, would lead to an increase, not a decrease, in injuries and fatalities.

    There seems to be an attitude in society that conflict and grievance can be resolved through violence, as apparently Seung-Hui Cho believed. This attitude is pervasive in the mass media: in video games, on TV, in the movies, on the news. I wonder whether these images are creating a society in which we want to live.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!


  2. #2
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    However, most, if not all, confrontational situations do not occur when expected, or under ideal conditions, or when the intended victim is alert and ready to respond. Based on the experience of professionals, I reasonably conclude that an armed citizenry, untrained and unpracticed in life-threatening situations, would lead to an increase, not a decrease, in injuries and fatalities.
    That might be the reason we have seen all those increases in injuries and fatalities since the incenption of carrying concealed weapons laws.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    [Douglas K. Lindner quoted] However, most, if not all, confrontational situations do not occur when expected, or under ideal conditions, or when the intended victim is alert and ready to respond.
    Hogwash. Once the first gunfire was heard at VT, the cat was out of the bag. Anyone with actual ability to respond could have.

    Based on the experience of professionals, I reasonably conclude that an armed citizenry, untrained and unpracticed in life-threatening situations, would lead to an increase, not a decrease, in injuries and fatalities.
    Sure. While some GG's that would otherwise have been killed by BG's will certainly find a way to shoot themselves or to shoot some other GG by mistake, there will be a vast increase in the number of BG's neutralized ... injured, killed. As is likely, when people have the ability to resist, to save innocent lives. At least until the vast majority of BG's slink back into their holes and stop harrassing and murdering innocents. And that's not a good thing?

    There seems to be an attitude in society that conflict and grievance can be resolved through violence, as apparently Seung-Hui Cho believed.
    Yes, and there seems to be a decided lack of attitude in this society that a practical ability to resist violence will result in actually being safer. Sad, but true.

    This attitude is pervasive in the mass media: in video games, on TV, in the movies, on the news. I wonder whether these images are creating a society in which we want to live.
    Of course not. Neither is the mentality of rolling over to die at the hands of psychpaths, thinking the do-nothing approach is best. That's an image I'd just as soon dispell, but that's hard when an entire population thinks this way.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  4. #4
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    I am not a gun advocate,
    We noticed.
    I believe that gun advocates are sincere in their desire to make the public safer.
    Well, you got something right.
    However, most, if not all, confrontational situations do not occur when expected, or under ideal conditions, or when the intended victim is alert and ready to respond.
    Stating the obvious here, but again, he's right.
    Based on the experience of professionals, I reasonably conclude that an armed citizenry, untrained and unpracticed in life-threatening situations, would lead to an increase, not a decrease, in injuries and fatalities.
    Uh-oh. Where did this come from? A good guy with a gun is likely to kill more than 33 people in a attempt to stop the shooter? I guess he just can't see the danged forest because all those pesky trees are in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    What a maroon
    You got that one right.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

  5. #5
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    Douglas K. Lindner

    After checking his personal website I realized he has zero firearms experience. If he is truly doing work for DARPA, I am guessing it must be optics or range-finding related, not ballistics since his experience is related to electrics and electronics.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    Big difference in defensive handgun shooting (10 yards and under) and sniping (500-2000 yards). Factors such as wind, trajectory, and target speed really aren't concerns for me. While these human factors are important restrictions on sniper marksmanship, most police and military are not snipers.

    Once again, I have to assume that the police and military posses secret mystic ninja scrolls on the master of firearms. Folks, I'm willing to bet the average armed citizen shoots more than the average armed professional.
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

    DaddyWarcrimes.com

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    I'll agree with him that it would be tragic if a ccw'er reacted to Cho after he shot his first 2 people, then accidently shot a bystander while taking Cho down. 3 or 4 innocents killed that day would have indeed been terrible.
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  8. #8
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    Why would DARPA want this technology for a sniper rifle before any other type of firearm? It makes no sense whatsoever, and leads me to doubt his bona-fides right off the bat.

    I led a recon/sniper platoon for almost three years, one of them in combat. I have absolutely no idea what this guy is talking about. None of my shooters ever came remotely close to shooting a friendly, and for the life of me I can't see how there is any more than a 1 in 1,000,000 chance that a sniper would ever be in a raging, close in firefight with friendlies all around still using his sniper rifle. I'd be very curious to see any evidence of snipers causing friendly-fire casualties... Until then, I have to call BS (or at least unintentional misrepresentation) on this guys story.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Why would DARPA want this technology for a sniper rifle before any other type of firearm? It makes no sense whatsoever, and leads me to doubt his bona-fides right off the bat.

    I led a recon/sniper platoon for almost three years, one of them in combat. I have absolutely no idea what this guy is talking about. None of my shooters ever came remotely close to shooting a friendly, and for the life of me I can't see how there is any more than a 1 in 1,000,000 chance that a sniper would ever be in a raging, close in firefight with friendlies all around still using his sniper rifle. I'd be very curious to see any evidence of snipers causing friendly-fire casualties... Until then, I have to call BS (or at least unintentional misrepresentation) on this guys story.
    Agreed. Snipers would be the least likely to cause friendly-fire casualties, by virtue of skill, training and temperament. I'm with you on calling BS.

    Douglas K. Lindner: "There seems to be an attitude in society that conflict and grievance can be resolved through violence, as apparently Seung-Hui Cho believed."
    The sad thing is, Seung-Hui Cho was right. He believed that he could go onto a university campus and kill a large number of people, with no one able to stop him. He did and they didn't. He finally decided to take his own life. He wasn't stopped by the "authorities".
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  10. #10
    Member Array Cocolo's Avatar
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    Based on the experience of professionals, I reasonably conclude that an armed citizenry, untrained and unpracticed in life-threatening situations, would lead to an increase, not a decrease, in injuries and fatalities.
    He has no idea of the subject, just what he heard at the scuttlebut. It is sad that he is getting attention on a subject he knows nothing about.

    I believe the Army had this problem in WWII when many soldiers didn't actually fight in the war, not because they were afraid, but because they couldn't kill another human being. Later the Army started using human siluetes and moving siluetes for training providing better results on future engagements.

  11. #11
    Member Array 1911-Neil's Avatar
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    That is to say, the shooters could easily hit someone they are not aiming at. (The research project is developing technology that would mitigate these effects on the point of aim.) This physiological response to combat stress is well known to the army and documented in the open literature.

    In fact, the army spends millions of dollars and devotes hundreds of hours of training to overcome the body's natural response to stress. I imagine police departments also engage in this training. The training is only partially successful.
    What training did Cho have that allowed him to successfully shoot 32 people?

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    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911-Neil View Post
    What training did Cho have that allowed him to successfully shoot 32 people?
    Well, I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. It's all part of the coverup!
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911-Neil View Post
    What training did Cho have that allowed him to successfully shoot 32 people?
    The Army trains sane people to overcome their natural aversion to killing people. This train is not required in crazy people.

    We figure it's more economical to recondition the mentally stable instead of hiring only nut jobs.
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

    DaddyWarcrimes.com

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    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddy Warcrimes View Post
    The Army trains sane people to overcome their natural aversion to killing people. This train is not required in crazy people.

    We figure it's more economical to recondition the mentally stable instead of hiring only nut jobs.
    You could recruit from corporate America and get all the nutjobs you wanted, cheap!

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    People with CCWs shoot a lot more than police, and have a much better record of hitting the target AND not hitting bystanders. Maybe we should disarm the police!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

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