U Of Mn Just Doesn't Get It.

This is a discussion on U Of Mn Just Doesn't Get It. within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/04/24/71685 April 24, 2007 U gun policy will not soon change University officials and the Board of Regents strongly agree on a no-gun policy. By ...

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Thread: U Of Mn Just Doesn't Get It.

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    U Of Mn Just Doesn't Get It.

    http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/04/24/71685

    April 24, 2007
    U gun policy will not soon change
    University officials and the Board of Regents strongly agree on a no-gun policy.
    By Alex Robinson

    Following the tragic shootings of 32 students and professors at Virginia Tech University, gun law discussions have flared up across the country.

    Some believe stricter gun laws will help prevent violent crimes, while others believe people should carry guns if they want.

    In a recent poll conducted by MSN-Zogby, 59 percent of Americans polled believed stricter gun laws would not help

    prevent tragedies, while 36 percent said stricter gun laws would help prevent tragedies. An additional 5 percent said they weren't sure.

    University Police Chief Greg Hestness said the average person wouldn't have enough training to stop a tragedy from happening, even with a gun.

    "Police do a tremendous amount of training, and through their training, they automatically think about who's around," Hestness said. "It'd be a very dangerous situation discharging a firearm on campus, even if you are very well trained."

    In Minnesota, residents are allowed to carry concealed firearms if they are registered by the county, and if they pass a firearm safety class. It is illegal for convicted felons, minors or people with a mental illness or chemical dependency to buy a firearm.

    Like Virginia Tech, the University has a no-gun policy for students, faculty and staff. University General Counsel Mark Rotenberg said that policy will not soon change.

    "A weapons-free environment is even more important now," he said.


    Rotenberg also said the University regents feel very strongly about having a gun-free campus.

    Chemical engineering and chemistry senior Brad Cyr is the head of the Minnesota Shooting Club. Cyr said the University should allow students to carry concealed weapons because it is a state institution, and the state allows concealed carry.

    "Ultimately, the only person that's going to be able to protect me and my loved ones is myself," Cyr said.

    Heather Martens, the president of Citizens for a Safer Minnesota, said the issue isn't whether guns are good or bad.

    "There isn't a pro-gun and anti-gun debate going on," Martens said. "What we should be having a conversation about is how can we prevent people with dangerous mental health conditions, kids and criminals from getting firearms."

    Martens said that she hoped the tragedy at Virginia Tech could spark a discussion about gun laws.

    "I think it would be tragic if more people had to die before we had a real conversation about how to prevent it," she said.

    Some organizations have been leery of using the tragedy to push their positions.

    The National Rifle Association has not yet commented on the tragedy, but released a statement that said, in part: "This is a time to grieve and to heal. This is not the time for political discussions, public policy debates or to advance a political agenda."

    College Republicans have also refrained from taking a position.

    "Right away, I just wanted stay away from it, because we should be worried about them (Virginia Tech students) and not policies," said Ryan Mattson, a political science senior and the executive director of College Republicans.

    Political science senior and University DFL President Shannon Mitchell said her group hasn't taken a stance because its membership comes from many different backgrounds that influence individual positions on the issue.

    "It's hard for the party to take an exact stance, but I personally think that it's important to look at (gun) laws," she said.

    Oh, now it is important to have a gun free zone. They were only kidding about it before the VT killings but now they really mean it. So now the signs will say "This Really, Really is a Gun Free Zone So You Better Watch Out".

    Good Grief!!!!! These people are idiots.

    And as for those so well trained police unless you can get them to the crime scene at least 1 minute before the crime goes down all their training is useless if you ask me.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
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  3. #2
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    "A weapons-free environment is even more important now,"
    Right - pass the word around so other budding headcases can know where to strike next!

    Two bigs points - one has been mentioned - the cops cannot be there fast enough to stop mayhem when it starts.

    Second - Genuine CCW's with training can have as much ''value'' or sometimes more than some cops.

    "It'd be a very dangerous situation discharging a firearm on campus, even if you are very well trained."
    It's also very dangerous to allow a killer idiot free reign to achieve his goal unchallenged It's called risk assessment.

    To wax rhetorical - would 2 deaths at VT have been just a smidgeon less of a tragedy than 32 !!!!!!!!!!!?? Even add in an injured innocent - it'd still be a better outcome.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Just remember you are dealing with educators, most of whom were educated in our wonderful education system. If they weren't idiots when they started they were when they finished.

    Before anyone takes offense, remember I work in higher education and know whereof I speak.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg View Post
    Just remember you are dealing with educators, most of whom were educated in our wonderful education system. If they weren't idiots when they started they were when they finished.

    Before anyone takes offense, remember I work in higher education and know whereof I speak.
    I couldnt have said it better.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Assuming that the position of the almighty police powers is accurate, and average citizens are simply not able to react without endangering bystanders, how much worse could it have been? Possibly one or two bystanders hit by friendly fire before the badguy gets hit or runs off to hide is better than 30 something helpless victims summarily executed in my book.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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    Member Array Arisin Wind's Avatar
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    University Police Chief Greg Hestness said the average person wouldn't have enough training to stop a tragedy from happening, even with a gun.

    "Police do a tremendous amount of training, and through their training, they automatically think about who's around," Hestness said. "It'd be a very dangerous situation discharging a firearm on campus, even if you are very well trained."


    Maybe Chief Hestness can share his training with the Virginia Tech police and other police departments so they can stop future tragedies from happening.

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    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    My reply to the article, not quite as poetic as it could have been:

    Typical zombie vomit. These so called educators need to engage their brains once in a while. Does any one believe that saying, "We REALLY REALLY mean it this time, NO GUNS!" is going to keep a shooter away? Does anyone really believe that the police (people with badges) are endowed with super mystical gun-fu? Or that Cho was such a good shooter by complete chance? I guess the real story here is that only the police are sufficiantly trained to get into a gunfight with someone who has had no training in how to shoot a gun. By the way, were the armed police IN Norris Hall when the shooting started? No, but the unarmed victims were! I'll bet there were quite a few of them that wish they had had a gun, but for them it's too late. Who is next to feel the weight of a realization born out of dread, that they should have fought for their gun rights, or ignored an unjust law or rule? Remember, the first rule of gunfighting is, HAVE A GUN. Unless both sides are shooting, it's just a slaughter.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Member Array Krmnnghia's Avatar
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    The training comment really gets me. I know for a fact that I shoot 100's of rounds more a month than my cop buddies do and I would be willing to put money down that alot of the guys and gals on this board are better shots than most LEO's.

    All the LEO's I know including my cousin who is with SWAT in Pontiac and Detroit practice very little. AARRGGG

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    U gun policy will not soon change
    University officials and the Board of Regents strongly agree on a no-gun policy.
    If they advertise their forced disarmament policies, BG's are going to converge. The policies are going to get people killed, needlessly, though it can no longer be argued it cannot be foreseen. Dumb.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array 4my son's Avatar
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    is as does,

    Or was that stupid is as stupid does,

    Or is there a difference?

    Another barrel full of sheep just sitting there waiting for someone to come along with the audacity to ignore the all powerful "No Guns" signs.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post

    University Police Chief Greg Hestness said the average person wouldn't have enough training to stop a tragedy from happening, even with a gun.
    How hard is it to see your attacker, point your gun at him, and shoot him? Now, hopefully you have a clear shot with no innocents behind him; but um, when it comes down to 'he's-going-to-kill-you-dead-if-you-don't-fight-back,' what's better? NOT having a gun? Yeah, we saw how effective that was.

    "Police do a tremendous amount of training, and through their training, they automatically think about who's around," Hestness said. "It'd be a very dangerous situation discharging a firearm on campus, even if you are very well trained."
    Well, yeah, they go through all sorts of training, but firearms training is not, as I understand it, the bulk of it. And then reports indicate that in most departments, police fire their guns in practice and/or qualification a bare minimum amount. Many gun owners practice and shoot FAR more frequently than cops do.

    You know, from this statement, you really have to conclude that this UPD guy must feel that NOWHERE is it safe or recommendable for civilians to have carry guns. If it's not safe for them to respond to a threat in a university classroom, why would it be so in a supermarket, or a movie theater parking lot? Come out and say it, Hestness: you oppose the idea of us civilians carrying guns, 'cause we're not as 'highly trained' as you are.

    Like Virginia Tech, the University has a no-gun policy for students, faculty and staff. University General Counsel Mark Rotenberg said that policy will not soon change.

    "A weapons-free environment is even more important now," he said.
    Yeah, it's just too bad you're too damned stupid to realize, even now, that you don't GET a 'weapons-free' environment just because you publish a rule and post a sign, ya moron! Otherwise, how do you explain Cho having guns on the campus of VT? How do you explain that because of the MURDERER, the campus went from gun-free to gun-containing, and 32 innocents were slaughtered because of your BS rules?!

    "Right away, I just wanted stay away from it, because we should be worried about them (Virginia Tech students) and not policies," said Ryan Mattson, a political science senior and the executive director of College Republicans.
    I had NO objection to people wanting to discuss the "what should we do" issues right away after this. The fact is, something needs to change. Deference to the grief of the bereaved is just fine, but it doesn't mean that we have to refrain from discussing the issue, even debating it, even arguing it.

    What if a copycat had decided to pull a similar rampage four days after this one, and everyone was caught flat-footed (again) because we had been afraid to hurt people's feelings by turning this into a gun control debate -- which it IS?

    This rampage demonstrated the failure of gun control, up close and personal. We should be in-your-face telling that story. How many people's lives are going to be saved by our compassion in not discussing this "too soon" after the massacre?

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    What I find is.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Arisin Wind View Post
    University Police Chief Greg Hestness said the average person wouldn't have enough training to stop a tragedy from happening, even with a gun.

    "Police do a tremendous amount of training, and through their training, they automatically think about who's around," Hestness said. "It'd be a very dangerous situation discharging a firearm on campus, even if you are very well trained."


    Maybe Chief Hestness can share his training with the Virginia Tech police and other police departments so they can stop future tragedies from happening.
    One, the police want to perpetuate the myth that they are the experts and we are the brainless masses. Second it seems that they are always looking for a solution that will result in no deaths or injuries what-so-ever. As a result they waste a lot of time because that probably won't happen. These experts sat around outside Columbine when they should have been rushing the building and killing the BG's. Third I think most people who realize the police are not the great experts they claim to be, would take their chances on a civilian with a defensive firearm instead of waiting for LE to get there.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Hay Carumba! Of course shooting a gun in a crown is dangerous! Let do some math: Cho pops off a 10 rd clip, a good guy uses that moment to pop off his a couple rounds , for a grand total of 10 - 14 dangerous rounds fired. Of course, we'd be risking making Cho angrier and even more aggressive. I'm starting to think that these people are right. Lining up to be executed in an orderly fashion is the only way to contain these violent acts, since clearly a good guys' couple of rounds is more dangerous than Cho's next 160.[vomiting]..........[/vomiting]
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  15. #14
    Member Array Matt Stokes's Avatar
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    Spot on with this issue Joe! The University of Minnesota is one of the most liberal (clueless) minded colleges in the nation. Just remember, a portion of the campus is contained in a congressional district that overwelmingly elected a law breaking muslim to the congress. You can't make this stuff up, in this case truth is stranger than fiction! I have problems with this mass myopia, an institution designed to cultivate sheeple.
    Semper Paratus

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