Anti-Gun as a matter of Faith

Anti-Gun as a matter of Faith

This is a discussion on Anti-Gun as a matter of Faith within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I had an enlightening , at least for me, discussion this morning with one of the guys who plays in our tennis group on occasion. ...

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Thread: Anti-Gun as a matter of Faith

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
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    Anti-Gun as a matter of Faith

    I had an enlightening , at least for me, discussion this morning with one of the guys who plays in our tennis group on occasion. This was the first time I saw him since the VT shootings, and the subject of gun control came up. He asked my opinion on gun control.

    I told him that in my opinion by creating a "gun free" campus the University Administration had, in effect, established a killing field for criminals, terrorists, and crazed individuals like Cho who are intent upon killing people. That the only effect of the University policy was to disarm law abiding students and faculty who might otherwise have had a right to be lawfully armed, and thus make them defenseless against what, in fact, happened.

    His response was to look at me with shock and state that he did not agree. I then said that it was my understanding that at least three of the students who were killed had concealed weapon permits and thus could have been armed but for the University policy, and posed the following question to him: I asked if he didn't agree that if those students, and others, had been armed whether it is not likely that fewer students and faculty would have been killed. His response was no, he did not agree. I then asked him why he didn't agree; in what way did he disput the validity of my conclusion that fewer people would likely have been killed? I said that he was, of course, entitled to his opinion, but that if we were to have an intellectually honest discussion about gun control, he needed to have logical reasons to refute my argument. With that he left.

    What I have realized after this discussion is that people hold anti-gun positions for different reasons. Some, who have not been raised with and are not familiar with guns, have a fear of them. And some have just bought into the anti-gun rhetoric of the Brady campaign people, and their ilk, without thinking the issue through. I think that many of these folks can, with reasoned arguments, be brought back from the "dark side" to see the fallacy of their anti-gun positions.

    But, I now see that there are people, like this tennis buddy, for whom their anti-gun position is an "article of faith," and, as such, no amount of reasoned arguments will sway them. And I have decided that I will no longer get my blood presure up trying to reason with these people, but will reserve my energy for the other group for whom reason is a value they respect.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien


  2. #2
    JT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I then said that it was my understanding that at least three of the students who were killed had concealed weapon permits and thus could have been armed but for the University policy
    Do you have a source for that by any chance? I had not heard that and would like to use that information, but I would like to have a source to back it up.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Ron, I personally have no problem with your buddies views. I respect his religious beliefs. The problem I have is when some of these folks try to impose their views/beliefs on me. They get on board with the anti gunners and try to ban/legislate everything.

    If you don't want to own a gun and don't want to carry...fine. But don't try and take my right to personal protection away.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

    -- Theodore Roosevelt --

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    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a_kayaker View Post
    Ron, I personally have no problem with your buddies views.
    I don't see any reference to religion, just 'article of faith', which to my understanding is not religion based.

    Signed: Confused, Nashville.

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Ron, don't give up. You may have just planted a very small seed of doubt into his thinking. After all he had no response to your very well put argument. He brought up the subject, if he didn't want to hear an opposing view to his he should not have asked. See if he wants to continue the discussion but don't push him, let him broach the subject.

    Keep up the good work. I know it is hard to stay cool when faced with unreasoned views but sometimes it is worth it.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Ron understand that any anti gun position has to be a matter of faith , just like belief in a higher power . Neither belief can be supported by logic , but only one manifests evidence in todays world . and if you need a clue , its the less guns = less crime and assaults belief that really doesnt stand up .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Anti-gunners have faith that they're not going to be in a life-threatening situation. If they are threatened, they have faith in the the criminal not to attack them after they submit. They have faith that the police will be there in time to save them. They have faith that no amount of training or preparation will make the slightest bit of difference in coping with an attacker. Their faith is typically based on hypothetical or apocryphal tales, despite real-world evidence to the contrary (hence the nature of "faith").

    They don't have faith ("confidence" would actually be a better term) in themselves or other competent individuals to take personal responsibility for their own defense.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

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    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    Here's something you may want to read

    A Christian Justifies Carrying
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

    The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.

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    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p8riot View Post
    Here's something you may want to read

    A Christian Justifies Carrying
    As 0.02 said "I don't see any reference to religion, just 'article of faith', which to my understanding is not religion based." Religion really isn't the topic of the thread.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I applogise for inserting religon into my post . it was done solely as a comparitave basis . Tho i do find liberalisim ( gun control , no one in the middle east wants to hurt us , the world is all good ) type thinking akin to a religon .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a_kayaker View Post
    Ron, I personally have no problem with your buddies views. I respect his religious beliefs. The problem I have is when some of these folks try to impose their views/beliefs on me. They get on board with the anti gunners and try to ban/legislate everything.

    If you don't want to own a gun and don't want to carry...fine. But don't try and take my right to personal protection away.
    Kayaker,

    His anti-gun position was not based on a religous belief. I am sorry if I gave that impression. By usng the term "Act of Faith,", I did not mean it in a religous sense, but only that his anti-gun position is so ingrained that no amount of reason or logic can sway him from that belief.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0.02 View Post
    I don't see any reference to religion, just 'article of faith', which to my understanding is not religion based.

    Signed: Confused, Nashville.
    I hope my latest post explains what I meant. But, you are correct there is no reference to or intent to interject a religous belief in my post.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Ron understand that any anti gun position has to be a matter of faith , just like belief in a higher power . Neither belief can be supported by logic , but only one manifests evidence in todays world . and if you need a clue , its the less guns = less crime and assaults belief that really doesnt stand up .
    Redneck Repairs,

    You are, of course, correct. I just never thought of it that way until my conversation this morning.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

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    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I hope my latest post explains what I meant. But, you are correct there is no reference to or intent to interject a religous belief in my post.

    Ron
    It does, I think the misunderstanding arose because the thread title has the word faith as 'Faith'. Religions, particularly Christianity, apply lots of nouns to non-nouns.
    No problem, now lets get back on topic.

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Two items.

    1. Please cite a source stating that there were three victims who were CCW holders disarmed by VT.

    2. 75% of the population depends on emotion for at least part of their decision making process. 25% base their entire decisions on emotion. That is just how people are wired and any course or books on personality typing will tell you that. For this reason we need to come to terms with the FACT that FACTS alone do not win the day in the 2A debate. We own the factual side of the argument but gave away the emotional side long ago by ignoring it. The anti's depend entirely on emotion so those 25% who only use emotion were easily gobbled up by them. If the pro 2A groups would maintain their logical superiority while also exploiting the emotional motivations of 75% of the population we would be unstoppable.

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