July 1st, 2007 02:13 PM
Multiple Hits Stopping Power
Can someone help me to know if there is any study that consider multiple hits?
July 1st, 2007 03:01 PM
The way I look at it, especially with handguns, don't stop shooting until the threat is stopped, even if it means having to reload. I always carry a couple spare mags.
USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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July 1st, 2007 03:53 PM
I'll quote Gabe Suarez: "If after two solid hits the adversary is not interested in going down, more body hits will not convince him. After the body has been hit solidly, twice, the nervous system tends to disregard any further injury or pain. Yes, more injury will probably kill the individual...eventually. But that is not your objective. Your objective is to incapacitate him". Gabe goes on to say that the answer to a failure to stop with two shots to center of mass would be to follow up with a well placed shot to the cranial cavity. Again, taken from Gabe Suarez' book The Tactical Pistol. I have no personal knowledge or experience.
Originally Posted by fjmaring
July 1st, 2007 05:09 PM
So much unprovoked violent crime these days is drug related.
The aggressor might be very high either with a "drug of choice" or a multiple drug cocktail.
Also often a drug and alcohol mix.
If the BG is loaded up with drugs then you must place multiple hits until the threat stops being a deadly threat.
The BG might be feeling no pain at all and/or depending on the drug or combination of drugs in his system he may have almost superhuman strength.
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July 1st, 2007 05:50 PM
Gabe seems to have changed his mind on this. These days, he's teaching students to fire a 'burst' of 4-6 rounds into the body before switching to the head. Even for headshots, he advocates more than one.
Originally Posted by wmhawth
The bottom line is pistol bullets are pretty wimpy (even big ones like the .45) and repeated application may be necessary.
July 1st, 2007 06:57 PM
That makes sense to me Blackeagle. By the way, I envy your opportunity to attend that training in Salt Lake City with Gabriel Suarez.
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
July 1st, 2007 09:59 PM
Maybe I'm weird, but when I train on silhouettes I'm not training to hit "center mass". I'm training to hit the CPU. Consistently and reliably. I can't wait until the tactical pistol classes start (one or two months, methinks), to put that thought to the test in high-stress workouts.
The way I figure it, a lowly .22 can turn out the lights if you hit the right spots. Hit the CNS and everything turns off. It's a harder target, I agree, but if worst comes to worst and I even have to draw and fire on someone than damn me if I'm going to let him get to shoot back.
July 2nd, 2007 07:29 AM
I have learned from Clint Smith, the 3 main areas of armor of which to shoot is Center of Mass - Head - Pelvis.
If a couple good COM shots fail to stop then go to either the Head or attack their structural support, (Pelvis/Hip).
Pelvis/Hip may be easier to hit than Head shot as it is a bigger target, but bottom line, "Don't stay on COM if 2-4 good hits don't bring them down."
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
July 2nd, 2007 09:08 AM
July 2nd, 2007 01:48 PM
Let's Think about Target Size...
Studies of actual shootings suggest the pelvic/hip shot is EXTREMELY effective in stopping the continued advance of the threat. Especially when larger (bone BREAKING not PIERCING) .40+ calibers are used. And while the head & each side of the pelvis offer generally the same size target...the pelvis is much less likely to be ducking, dodging & weaving (*unless the Perp is an excellent Elvis Impersonator). More likely hits mean more hits & only HITS count.
With the civilian availability of Body Armor the pelvic/hip shot is an increasingly popular target consideration for effective stops. The act of upright mobility requires a complex muscle/support system & high brain function. To me, the Support System is a bigger immediate target than the Central Nervous System. The CNS can be effected by stimulants, etc. The Skeletal System relies on Physics. And the Laws of Physics are MUCH harder to ignore.
There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.
July 2nd, 2007 02:09 PM
fjmaring, good to see you over here.
There really aren't any good studies on multiple hits and "stopping power." And the studies on "one-shot stops" have notable flaws that have been discussed at length.
I've now worked on over 150 handgun killings. In every one of them where the person was stopped, the person who was killed was hit in a vital structure before he stopped - the heart/aorta, the brain - the upper spine would probably also work, but I've simply never seen a case with such a shot (and from this I would opine that it's quite difficult to hit). People shot in other areas may eventually die (there are a lot of blood vessels in the kidneys and liver, for example, and people shot in these organs certainly may bleed out and die), but they don't seem to be stopped.
In the cases I've seen, people shot in the brain stopped immediately. Those shot in the heart/aorta stopped moving about in a period of time ranging from immediately to two minutes later. Those shot in the heart/aorta nevertheless all immediately ceased aggressive action.
I've worked on several cases in which people were shot multiple times. It appears (from the statements of witnesses and medical experts) that they ceased aggressive action after being shot in a vital spot - again, the heart/aorta or brain. For example, one drunken and aggressive fellow absorbed seven bullets, three of which would certainly have been lethal, but only stopped when the final bullet clipped his aorta.
In any event, your .38 Special RNL 158-grain bullet carry load that we discussed on the S&W Forum is perfectly adequate to the task. I encourage everyone to study Grey's Anatomy to learn where the vital structures lie in a human, and to specifically target those if you (God forbid) find yourself in a situation when you need to shoot an aggressor.
July 2nd, 2007 02:22 PM
I think you mean Gray's Anatomy. The medical textbook spells it with an 'a'. Grey's Anatomy with an 'e' is the show on ABC. I don't think it would help improve your gunfighting skill much.
Originally Posted by Erich
July 2nd, 2007 02:39 PM
While i agree with the spirit of this statement i will point out as erich somewhat does that if you shoot them where you hold your hand for the pledge your liable to be somewhat aggressively disappointed with your chosen felon repellent . The mechanics of stopping aggression are a combination of 3 factors . In no particular order they are 1. structural damage ( broken bones and severed muscles ) to the point that further aggression is not possible . 2. blood loss to the point that blood pressure to the brain will not support consciousness. and 3. Disruption of the central nervous system to the point that it shuts down , or death . Now no one can argue that a .22 lr can do this with one shot under ideal conditions ( see what the mossad has used for assassinations ) but in the real world of ccw its not a good choice . The same can be said for the 500 mag , not a good choice . COM is an easy target ( or as easy as it gets ) to start with . For myself my point of aim is the " golden triangle " formed by the nipples and the nose . Even a handgun round in there has a fine chance of disrupting some major blood vessels , the cns , perephial nerves , and lastly muscle tissue which affects motor control of the arms and hands . If i have to shoot i really am not concerned with " knockdown" or killing them , I am concerned with stopping them from doing what made me shoot them in the first place and from my experience , and research i have the best chance of an immediate stop ( in the sense i defined ) by going for the triangle rather than com . I still am not sold that any of the ccw cals we carry will take out hip structure enough to drop someone from pure physical damage .
Those shot in the heart/aorta stopped moving about in a period of time ranging from immediately to two minutes later. Those shot in the heart/aorta nevertheless all immediately ceased aggressive action.
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July 2nd, 2007 02:48 PM
This is being bandied about, more frequently, re: the pelvis(as a target). From informal surveys, on two other forums(maybe we discussed it here, as well..?), no field responders or LE reported ever seeing a functional-incapacitation from a handgun round to the pelvis.
Originally Posted by ghost tracker
From a clinician's perspective, I would not put much faith in the pelvis. BIG structre. VERY rigid. I have seen multiple GSWs to the pelvic girdle (generally genitals were the targets), and aside from 1 femoral hit, none were very incapacitated. I have only the most basic grasp of physics, but my A&P are well and practically grounded.
Rifle or shotty to the pelvs, that's a different game.....
July 2nd, 2007 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Rob72
That's my understanding exactly. I have heard the claims of near miraculous stops with shots to the pelvis and there may have been a few. But other info I've come across indicates basically what you said, it doesn't work with handguns. IIRC, one scenario is that the round simply lodges in the pelvic bone with little effectiveness or it punches a 'caliber' size hole in it, again with ineffective results.
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