People Pointing Guns

This is a discussion on People Pointing Guns within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I'd like to continue my education at some point in the near future. At current tuition fees I question whether or not I really can, ...

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  1. #31
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    I'd like to continue my education at some point in the near future. At current tuition fees I question whether or not I really can, even if I cut my expenses down considerably. That extra 1k annually that's a trivial cost of living increase to most white collar people is a lot of money to me.
    Don't get me started on the universities and their tuition. With going back to school, the tuition the universities are charging is the problem even if you make a damned good salary. But the 1K you call trivial, multiplied by the number of teachers (because they sure don't want too many kids in their classrooms) IS a burden.

    Students can furnish their own school supplies until someone tells them they can't and creates a "program" for them to get it provided for them. By letting a "program pay for it (or a teacher) they can afford to have cable TV, a cartload of 2 liter bottles of pop, cigarettes, alcohol or any number of otherwise "optional" items. Around here, everyone is expected to provide their kids pencils, paper and Kleenex in volume. It's supposed to go to school with them the first day. When we objected to the volume of supplies we were told that it was "pooled" so those that cannot afford supplies would have supplies. We sent our kids to school everyday with the supplies they needed. They knew that if they lost them and couldn't do the assignments they would have a foot planted in their backsides.

    I would like to put more money in my pocket, as well, but working for the State I haven't had a raise since 2002. My salary is a personal matter and when I find that I am not making enough I will move on. Interestingly, teachers have gotten a number of raises since I have. And here, a previous governor left a sizeable surplus in our State treasury. $300 million of it went to schools in one chunk to pay for new computers. Did that satisfy them? No, they have asked for more and more money and we keep giving it to them. I believe they have the attitude that they "are on a roll" and need to ask for even more "for the children". Personally I would make them get rid of the computers and television sets (which they have at home) and get back to teaching reading, writing, math, history, government. Limited to academic subjects we might be able to pass some kids. A field trip to us was to a manufacturing plant or a historical site, a museum or a zoo. Now they go to the movies or an amusement park. Oh, please.

    I pay most of my insurance, too and so do most other people so that doesn't really enter into it. But you said that my "idea about tying salary to performance is questionable" and that you have "students who cannot multiply". So who's fault is it that the kid cannot multiply? Is it the government's fault for not giving teachers a raise. I don't think so. I rather believe it is because teachers are simply passing them on instead of demanding they learn the material. You don't need standardized tests to tell the teachers that are not doing their job, nor do you need them to identify the kids that are simply not capable. In the case of the teacher, fire them; in the case of the incapable kids, that used to be the purpose of "special ed". You teach them what they are capable to learn. These kids will not be capable of finding "the roots of quadratic equations" no matter how much class time a teacher wastes. Every kid needs to know basic mathematics (without a calculator, BTW) and those that are capable and interested should move on to algebra, geometry, calculus, etc. If they fail the basics, they should be (do I dare say it?) held back. If the parents don't like it they need to be told they need to help them at home. Bad teachers is an easier problem to solve; they need to not be teachers.

    Now we base it on passing rates. Okay, the health class the swimming coach teaches has a 95% passing rate. My math class has a 65% passing rate, 2% below the campus average. Clearly the coach's rigorous course of watching Bill Cosby movies and reading chapters in a book and then copying the answers out of the back is providing a better education. I should just give up now, eh? I'm clearly academically inferior.
    No, the coach should be fired. If he didn't have a televsion in the first place or the administration had a policy of teaching instead of wasting class time, he would not be able to show Bill Cosby movies.

    Yay they passed a raise. Oh wait. They didn't fund it. Well no raise for us then. It's like someone giving you a piece of paper that says "We'd like to give you $500 but we're not going to".
    Been there, done that, every year. They still get 100% out of me.

    I do agree corporal punishment is a useful tool we are lacking. For Pete's sake all they do is give the kid a love tap with witnesses. It saves us time and effort, and it's ultimately not a punishment at all, just the perception of one
    Love taps? That would be a waste. We used to get "licks" with a wooden paddle while bent over holding onto a chair in front of a classroom full of other kids. The fear of crying in front of a room full of your peers is a REAL reason not to act up in school.

    I don't pretend to have all the answers, either. But I don't think that the answer is to continuously throw money at teachers and schools. All we get (as taxpayers) is how great it would be for them to get jsut a couple of hundred million dollars. They always fail. It's never any better. I would refine your idea of getting politicians out of the schools a step further. Get the government out of schools.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

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  3. #32
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    Then Bumper you should understand. I'm not going to quit what I'm doing either. But why should I just roll over and let someone like you fire me for trying hard and otherwise pull the rug out from under me?

    If I don't try to press my own interest and try to advance the cause for my students no one will.

    My salary is not a private matter. It's public information who I am, where I live, and how much they pay me. You can look it up on the internet.

    I think I even posted it here, but I'm currently fighting a bill that would actually give me a raise because it is not otherwise fiscally responsible.

    And while I think your concept of corporal punishment is an option we should pursue, realistically, that's never going to happen without some serious tort reform. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that it ain't going to happen. The version I mentioned does still occur at least and it's better than nothing.

    Schools are all messed up I agree. So I went to work at one. It's never going to get fixed if all anyone has to offer is "You people suck!"

    Personally I honestly think I can't do any worse than what's already been done. And the thing is, there are places where this liberal nonsense doesn't rule the roost and things are done more efficiently. It doesn't have to be like this. There are some people who actually know what they're doing but useless rules, laws, policies and regulations can tie their hands sometimes.

    The current movement in education is to take all of power away from the classroom teacher and place it in another entity such as the administration. But you take away the power, you also take away the responsibility.

    As for schools not needing more funding, tell that to the districts using history textbooks that stop at 1960.

    I'll admit I feel your pain working for the state. Anyone who gets paid by tax dollars has some common headaches regardless of what it is they actually do.

  4. #33
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    Don't get me wrong, Euc, I am not saying you don't deserve a raise, should quit your job, nor should be fired. I did not intend my posts (rants I admit) to apply to you. I have seen you weave mathematics into this forum and would, without actually "knowing" you say that you are probably one of the better teachers. People that are passionate about their subjects normally are, IMO. One of the flaws of getting paid by a school is the same flaw state employees have. They all get performance evaluations at the same time, they all get raises (or not) at the same time. The stereotypical State employee that has been paid more than they are worth for years gets the same raise all of the "high performers" do. That's just wrong. It's also wrong that State employees, Federal employees and teachers can "own" their jobs. It breeds bad performance, plain and simple.

    On salary being private, even though my salary is public information (I even woke up one morning and found mine was published in the newspaper, I still consider it private. It's public information but most people don't know what I make. And I don't tell everyone. I hear you on the opposing of bills that would get you a raise. We had a "threat" by the legislature here some years ago that said they would give State employees a raise when we voted for their raise. I voted against it but it passed. Know what? The didn't give us a raise, lol. So I stopped voting for incumbents except in very special circumstances.

    And while I think your concept of corporal punishment is an option we should pursue, realistically, that's never going to happen without some serious tort reform. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that it ain't going to happen. The version I mentioned does still occur at least and it's better than nothing.
    I agree that it won't happen until tort reform. When one of our kids was in school I got a call one day from the principal about him acting up in school. I recommended that he give him a spanking. He was in shock and told me that the school didn't support corporal punishment. Now that's a surprise to me because I know for a fact that the school district did in fact support corporal punishment. The gist of it was that he did not support corporal punishment. I told him to deal with it however he wanted to, that I would deal out some corporal punishment when I got home that night. And I did.

    Schools are all messed up I agree. So I went to work at one. It's never going to get fixed if all anyone has to offer is "You people suck!"
    Again, I did not mean to imply that you, personally, suck. But I can tell you that a lot of your colleagues do just like a lot of mine do. I see so many on a daily basis I need one of those "I See Stupid People" tshirts. When teachers argue for a raise, unfortunately, you are all lumped in together like State employees are. Many teachers suck. Many State employees suck. That's gospel.

    The current movement in education is to take all of power away from the classroom teacher and place it in another entity such as the administration. But you take away the power, you also take away the responsibility.
    Make them take responsibility and the power will follow. Too many teachers, when criticized, blame the system and ignore their own failings. I would not take the power away from teachers at all. The administration is where the bulk of the problems lie nor would I give it to the parents because many parents don't give a crap about what their kids are actually learning, but what their rank is (grades) in class. Parents need to be honest when they have produced a demon spawn with half a brain and less motivation.

    As for schools not needing more funding, tell that to the districts using history textbooks that stop at 1960.
    I used to hear that about State agencies. We were trying to surplus a number of computers that were actually higher powered than many other agencies had. My answer to them was that the other agencies needed to change their priorities. Schools with outdated school books but new football and band uniforms or TVs in every room need to re-order their priorities. After all, they had the money to buy a crapload of "Heather Has Two Mommies".

    Again, Euc, don't take what I have said to be an attack on you, personally. That was not my meaning. But I hope you understand where I am coming from as a taxpayer and a parent (4x over). Your problem is similar to mine in a lot of ways. It's the "system".
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Well that's fair enough Bumper.

    I guess I'm just more sympathetic when I hear about people in education getting their names dragged through the mud because a lot of people don't understand how delicate the situation is sometimes, and how nonsense policies, laws, and the like can force otherwise moderate people to do extreme things.

  6. #35
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    Wow, all this because I asked about pointing guns in pictures. A very interesting discussion. I am learning a lot.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecbaatz
    Wow, all this because I asked about pointing guns in pictures. A very interesting discussion. I am learning a lot.
    I sense a tongue in cheek. But if you read a little closer you might find that the topic hasn't really deviated that far off topic. Political correctness is at the root of a lot of our personal problems and the problems of this country along with a lot of other liberal "thought" that has now started working it's way into the mainstream. Getting upset over a picture of someone pointing a gun at you is closely related to the problems of "no tolerance" policies in school. Trying to make tiny plastic guns that have no resemblance to something that could hurt someone has only one purpose, guns are bad. If you don't believe that, we have sunk closer to losing our gun freedoms than I would have thought....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Setting aside the excellent discussion on public education and PC, for a moment...
    Quote Originally Posted by ecbaatz
    Hi, yes I am new the board and this is probably my first post. However I have a question to ask but then I am not sure why I even need to ask it.
    Welcome. Funny, I was wondering why you needed to ask, too.
    Why are there so many avitars of people pointing guns at the camera (I am assuming the picture was taking on the time delay setting and no one was holding it)?
    Obviously, because that is the image they wish to project, for the moment.
    To me it seems that we are violating our rules for safety.
    No. Generally, rules of firearms safety apply to firearms, not photographs. Perhaps you mean to say that rules of firearms safety were violated during the making of the photograph. You have no way of knowing how the photograph was taken and have no facts to support your conclusion.
    Maybe it is just me and I am sure I will get a lot of flaming for pointing this out.
    Hmmm...My troll detector is glowing faintly blue. Almost sounds like a deliberate effort to invite flaming.
    Personally I don't care for it even if it is just a picture.
    OK. You are entitled to your opinion.
    What are we to tell our young children when they see the picture? Oh, it is ok Sammi, it is only a picture.
    Yes. Teach Saami that pictures are only pictures and words are only words. Teach Saami that pictures can be made to depict anything we want them to depict. Teach Saami the difference between illusion and reality. Teach Saami that it is far more important what you do in life than what you say, and that appearances can be deceptive. Teach Saami that there are very few absolutes in life, and that to survive, Saami will need to develop critical thinking skills.
    I always thought you should teach/lead by example and this IMHO is not an an example I want my children to see.
    Then lead by example. The topics discussed here are really too abstract and complex for young children, anyway.

    Oh, and watch out for my avatar. The knife blade is oriented blade-up. You might cut yourself.
    - Tom
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  9. #38
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    Tom,

    No, it was not an attempt to start a flame war. It was a concern that I had. And yes, I do not know if anyone was taking the picture, however I mentioned that the camera was probably on a delayed timer.

    Yes. Teach Saami that pictures are only pictures and words are only words. Teach Saami that pictures can be made to depict anything we want them to depict. Teach Saami the difference between illusion and reality. Teach Saami that it is far more important what you do in life than what you say, and that appearances can be deceptive. Teach Saami that there are very few absolutes in life, and that to survive, Saami will need to develop critical thinking skills.


    I know what to teach Samantha, I do not have to be told. You mentioned flaming and that is what I see in your comment above and the one below.

    Then lead by example. The topics discussed here are really too abstract and complex for young children, anyway.

    Oh, and watch out for my avatar. The knife blade is oriented blade-up. You might cut yourself.


    It was a simple question. It was a simple concern. However, you have to be sarcastic and disrespectful to my concerns. Yes, a lot of the topics are to abstract and complex for young children but they do understand pictures. And they realize that they have to be taken (unless they are cartoons) so again the question "Daddy, why are they pointing a gun at you? "

    I apologize if I offended anyone and from now on will keep my concerns to myself. Especially since a few on this board are offended if you don't agree with them.
    Last edited by ecbaatz; May 23rd, 2005 at 08:22 PM. Reason: poor spelling and grammar

  10. #39
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    Eric, I understand where you're coming from, but it's just the skillful art of the photographer manipulating your feelings! That's what good photography does!

    One thing I have learned about gunnies is that they love to disagree with each other, and none of us are shy about it! Getting a little bit of a tongue lashing due to your stance on something or your choice of firing platform or whatever just means you're part of the club.

  11. #40
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    Eric,

    You invited commentary and you got it. You asked what Sammi should be told, and expressed your opinion about leading and teaching. I suggested some things to teach Sammi about pictures. I was as serious as I took you to be. It appears you were being rhetorical. I'm sorry you thought it was sarcastic. That last bit about the knife was sarcastic, though, and I probably shouldn't have said it.

    And since you asked, again, no sarcasm here: if Sammi asks you why the person in the picture is pointing a gun at you, I think you need to explain that no one is actually pointing a gun at you, specifically.

    This was precisely the point of the discussion that evolved. We have kids being suspended, as if they had brought an actual gun on campus, for drawing a picture of a gun on a piece of paper, for having 1" plastic replicas of 1911 pistols, for bringing broomsticks made up to look like Kentucky long rifles for history class presentations. How different is that from calling an avatar photo a violation of gun safety? Treating a drawing as if it were a real handgun is no different than treating a photo as if it were a real person.

    Your post had my respect right up to the point where you told others what they should have on their avatars. I, for one, welcome your opinion and perspective. I can't speak for anyone else, but you are welcome to disagree with me as bluntly and honestly as you like. Just don't turn it into an ad hominem attack, please. This place is about the free flow of ideas, but you need to expect to have your positions tested. Disagreement is not disrespect. Judging these people without waiting for an answer to your question is.
    - Tom
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  12. #41
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    I did not say what should or shouldn't be in someone's avatar. I just asked why? Post what you want, after all Freedom of Speach is our first amendment. I spent 20 years in the navy defending that right and the rest of the constitution, and my two oldest sons are both currently defending your right to say whatever you want.

    I just asked a question, made a response to the excellent comments and never told or asked anyone to remove their avatars. So why the attack? Maybe I am being too defensive. Again my apologies.




    And my apologies on my spelling in my previous post. Now that does upset me.

  13. #42
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    I work for two magazine publications, one of which, as most of you know, is S.W.A.T. We always do our best to show safe gun handling skills. Sometimes, in order to illustrate an article properly, we need to have guns pointing at people. As an example, take at look at our "Quick Peek Revisited" article by Pat Rogers, in our August 2004 issue. You'll see multiple pictures of a soldier clearing around a corner to face off with an armed person. They both have guns, and they both end up pointing at each other. That article could not be explained effectively without those images.

    Were the models photographed with loaded firearms? No. Was one or both of the firearms fake? Yes. The carbine is, but I'm not sure about the Glock. We needed those images and they were done in a professional, safe manner, and there was no other way to get it done. Hiring an illustrator is out of our budget, and compositing different images is time consuming and not necessary when the photos could be executed in a safe manner.

    As explained in other posts, the self-timer is also a good tool. It lets you get an awesome, effective down-the-muzzle shot without breaking firearm safety rules. A photo of a gun pointing at you is a lot different than a real one pointing at you - the same way that movies on television aren't necessarily reality. It shouldn't be hard explaining that to a child. Children can be a lot smarter than we give them credit for. My four-year old niece has computer classes in her preschool.

    ecbaatz,
    You're a new poster so some members will eye you with suspicion. Many of us are from various other gun boards and have been posting for years and have seen trolls who start off with a friendly enough question. Until my troll radar starts going off, I'll think you're not one. I think what really tweaked a couple members was, "Wow, all this because I asked about pointing guns in pictures. A very interesting discussion. I am learning a lot." Without using the smilies it can be difficult to determine if you're serious or sarcastic, especially if you're a new member and we have no previous postings to gauge your personality by.

    We're all on the same side here, Tom357 and scbaatz. Scbaatz, I appreciate your service to our country and your sons' also, but you don't have to attempt to shame Tom by interjecting that to conclude your Free Speech commentary - we are all American citizens whether we chose to pick up a rifle in Uncle Sam's name or not, and one is not worth more than the other - without one, there is no other.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  14. #43
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    ecbaatz,
    Thank you for your service and sacrifice.
    Thank your sons for me when you see them again.

    Dan

  15. #44
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    OK, we don't know of your fine service to our country, everyone would thank you and say welcome and we still do say welcome after thrashing you about. I to served over 20 years USN/USAF. Served on the USS Leyte among others. I just believe your question struck us as someone poking around trying to find a problem area instead of being one of us and asking for help selecting a gun or telling us about your guns. So some of us may very well go off like a rocket, others may set back and watch. Water under under the bridge, I hope for you and your family your kids are safe and always will be, we all appreciate you for service to our country. Welcome and just join in with some fine gun questions or stories.
    As you slide down the banister of life,
    May the splinters never point the wrong way.
    ---
    NRA Life Member

  16. #45
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    Duh.....what was the question again?
    "Endeavor To Persevere"
    Chief Dan George

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