Interesting article

Interesting article

This is a discussion on Interesting article within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; 1911 abuse article http://www.advancedtactical.com/sweeneyarticle.pdf...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Rhome's Avatar
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    Interesting article

    Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often and for the same reason. ~ Robin Williams ~
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Ive read that one a few time and wow the ran bet it gives glockers a heart attack..

    I recommend both his Gun digest book of the 1911's that article is in there also one about bubba loading and will it break the extractor

  3. #3
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    Interesting, but fatally flawed as an actual experiment. You can tell by the tone of the article that the author set out to prove that his beloved "relics" were just as good as modern designs - hardly the basis for a fair test. Then, note the following:

    He used only hardball ammunition until the final test (the one that broke a gun). Why? The vast majority of people who carry a handgun for serious purposes carry modern expanding ammunition. One of the main complaints (justified or not) about the 1911 is that can be finicky with non-FMJ rounds. If he was really interested in seeing what the platform would do in extreme situations, shouldn't he have used ammo that would commonly be found in the weapon?

    He did all his sand/mud tests with the hammer down. The poor excuse of "Momma didn't raise no fool, I'm not shaking up a cocked and locked 1911" has some serious connotations - first, that a cocked and locked 1911 can't be handled roughly (like, say grappling with a bad guy on a concrete or paved surface, perhaps?). In addition, why didn't he just make it cocked and locked on an empty chamber if he was concerned about the two safeties failing? Surely that would be OK, right? Don't people carry them cocked and locked? Wouldn't it be more representative of a guy falling in mud and then having to use his weapon if the hammer was cocked during the mud exposure? Of course it would, but then the "test" might not work out the way he wanted it to...

    He cleaned and lubed the things between tests (if not more often)! Not exactly a torture test, considering the pistols each only fired about 500 rounds, max. Had he really wanted to make them fail (as he kept professing), I think the trip to the dunk tank, the stripping, lubing, water washes, and so on would have been eliminated.

    OK, we all know the 1911 is a capable platform. Is it as reliable (in general) as some more modern designs? I for one don't think so, and this "test" certainly isn't going to change that opinion.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #4
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    My laptop does not do pdf files too well on dail up & I'm on dial up right now but, I sure will read it tomorrow.
    That being said there is no reason why a properly tuned 1911 will not handle hollow point just as easily as ball.
    So...I can't imagine why he would limit his test to MilBall only.

    I agree that any testing should be done with the firearm in common carry condition which would be cocked and locked with a chambered round.

    Also any battle worthy 1911 worth its salt should be able to be run totally dry minus any lubrication (internal or external) and it should still cycle and function in general without oil or grease.
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    Senior Member Array jualdeaux's Avatar
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    For some reason I just don't see that up there with Bigbore's Glock torture testing.

  6. #6
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    Post Check This Out

    The Original Torture test for the Colt Pistol done in 1911 was a decently tough test.

    Browning was determined to prove the superiority of his handgun, so he went to Hartford to personally supervise the production of the gun.
    There he met Fred Moore, a young Colt employee with whom he worked in close cooperation trying to make sure that each part that was produced for the test guns was simply the best possible.
    The guns produced were submitted again for evaluation, to the committee.
    A torture test was conducted, on March 3rd, 1911.
    > The test consisted of having each gun fire 6000 rounds.

    > One hundred shots would be fired and the pistol would be allowed to cool for 5 minutes.

    > After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled.

    > After firing those 6000 rounds, the pistol would be tested with deformed cartridges, some seated too deeply, some not seated enough, etc.
    The gun would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and some more tests would then be conducted.

    Browning's pistols passed the whole test series with flying colors.
    It was the first firearm to undergo such a test, firing continuously 6000 cartridges, a record broken only in 1917 when Browning's recoil-operated machine gun fired a 40000 rounds test.

    The report of the evaluation committee (taken from 'The .45 Automatic, An American Rifleman Reprint', published by the National Rifle Association of America) released on the 20th of March 1911 stated:.......

    What more do you need in a Self Defense Handgun?
    Anybody going to fire 1,000 rounds out of their Colt handgun in self-defense or possibly to thwart a bank robbery and then go home and curse out the pistol because they now need to clean and oil it?

  7. #7
    Member Array HeadHunterII's Avatar
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    As far as I'm concerned 1911's don't need torture tests to prove their combat reliability. WWI, WWII, Korean War, and Vietnam were torture enough.

    It was THE service pistol of the United States Military from 1911 through 1990. Email me when GLOCK can beat that. Ill take my chances with the M1911A1.
    "The will to survive is not as important as the will to prevail... The answer to criminal aggression is retaliation."-- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC.

    "We didn't fight our way all the way to the top of the food chain to become vegetarians."-- Unknown

  8. #8
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    A Colt 1911 is my favorite automatic pistol for carry purposes and I use 230 grain hard ball. Not interested in abusing my pistols and think that some of these torture tests are a bit foolish.

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    Wow, March 3rd, 1911 must have been a reeeaaaallly long day. Assuming just 5 minutes to fire each hundred rounds, that equals 10 hours per gun just for the 6000 round portion. Then there's the "deformed cartridge" tests, then the rusting, then the burying, then more tests. Whew...good thing nobody had to eat or go potty or anything, or I might have to call that data into question.

    And HeadHunterII, if you think that a random, fresh out of the box 1911 is going to be as reliable as a random, fresh out of the box Glock, you haven't been paying very close attention over the last 20 years.

    And and, I agree that most of these torture tests are over the top. However, if you are going to do one, don't set it up to prove that your favorite pistola is just as good as someone elses, and don't fudge it by not using common SD ammo or by testing it in the common carrying configuration. At least be honest about it... If gun enthusiasts can't be open, forthright, and honest among with each other, we're no better then the fact-skewing antis and the fact-missing mass media, right?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    If I remember what I read correctly the tests on the 1911 started on March third and ran thru the 17th and the results were posted on the 20th. Not quite a one day test. Not like some of the modern torture tests I'll grant you.
    We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!

  11. #11
    Member Array DrSal's Avatar
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    I have a 1911 Springfield Armory ultra compact stainless. Great gun and fairly reliable, but it would never make it thru a Glock type torture test. NOTHING, esp a 1911 is /or ever will be as reliable a Glock, any Glock. Period..end of setence.

  12. #12
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    Well, if you have a Springfield Ultra Compact then what you have is quite simply not a 1911.
    It's a foreign made chopped Colt clone/copy 1911 format handgun and so you're probably correct in your assumption that your SA Compact will never be as reliable as a Glock.

    OK Here Is A Detonics Torture test For You.
    The Detonics is/was a true 1911 Pistol.


    DETONICS .45 “SUPERGUN” FIRES 31 THOUSAND ROUNDS AFTER GETTING SHOT OUT OF A CANNON!!!

    Pendergrass, Georgia… What do you do after flinging a $1200 .45 automatic onto a concrete slab from shoulder height at least a half-dozen times? Well, you may as well fire it out of a Civil War Union mortar about 125 yards up into the air and close to 350 yards downrange. And, if you’re going to do that, you may as well fire 31 thousand rounds out of it in five days without giving it any kind of a real cleaning.

    If that sounds like “cruel and unusual punishment” for a handgun, you’re right! But, that’s exactly what Detonics USA did at the end of October and the first week in November with one “ugly duckling” Model 9-11-01 pistol. The 9-11-01 is the full-size Detonics USA combat pistol, like the firm’s world famous sub-compact CombatMaster, but on steroids!

    And, an ugly duckling this 9-11-01 pistol truly was! After all, if you were going to abuse a premium handgun, why put it together with first quality parts? The frame rails were a little off-spec and the rear of the slide had a nasty ding knocked out of it when a ballpeen hammer slipped. But, Detonics USA wanted to test the Model 9-11-01’s resistance to accidental discharge in a fall to concrete. A standard test is to precipitate a controlled vector drop from a height of one meter. Always wanting to prove that Detonics USA pistols are tough, this hapless Model 9-11-01 was flung against the concrete floor from almost twice that distance, impacting on the muzzle, on the cocked hammer, on both sides, etc., the pistol smashed against the concrete six times. The grip safety was battered and bent, made jagged from slamming against the concrete, the rear sight beaten to destruction as well. But, the primed brass in the chamber could not be made to discharge until the trigger was deliberately pulled!

    The Paulson Brothers, identical twin cannoneers from extreme northwest Wisconsin, were commissioned to bring an 1861 Union Army eight-inch Siege Mortar South of the Mason-Dixon Line. The Paulson Brothers Ordnance Corporation’s mission was to launch that same Model 9-11-01 into the air for the sole purpose of letting it crash into the Earth!

    The services of a local automobile wrecker company were engaged to unload the 2 thousand pound mortar from the truck used to haul it to the testing site. Videographer Mike West was along to document the shot. An impressive group of witnesses was assembled for the event, including Detonics USA vice-President and CombatMaster designer Sid Woodcock.

    The 46-pound cannon ball brought along for the test shots was loaded over a measured charge of “single F” black powder and the first round was triggered, gauging range, windage and elevation. Several test shots were fired until, at last, the ugly duckling Model 9-11-01 was strapped into the 9-inch high, 7 ¾-inch 14-gauge steel canister over a two-inch, steel reinforced solid oak wad, the gun itself wrapped in scrap carpet and the top of the shell “X-ed” across with duct tape so the gun inside wouldn’t be launched again, but this second time from inside the canister!

    Video and still cameras ready, the Paulson Brothers fired their formidable 19th Century war machine. The Model 9-11-01 was launched into the sky, traveling in a high arc, then crashing down at a speed of 32 feet per second per second! Impact! Head Gunsmith and Chief Production Engineer Peter Dunn was the first to reach the pitifully abused pistol. Kneeling gently beside it in the grass, Peter observed that the “setback” from the initial charge had caused the pistol’s slide to edge slightly toward the rear of the frame. The canister was partially crushed.

    Carefully, the Head Gunsmith examined his ugly duckling creation. As witnesses gathered behind him and covered their ears, Peter loaded a full magazine of “Hardball” into the hapless handgun and opened fire. Seven rounds and no malfunction! Peter replaced the spent magazine with a second magazine, this time loaded with hollow points. Again, seven shots, no problems.

    The next torture session for the ugly duckling Model 9-11-01 .45 would begin the following Monday, far on the other side of Atlanta at the Bulls Eye Marksman Range. Professional firearms trainer Greg Boyer had arranged for fifteen of his colleagues to assist. The task was to fire over 30-thousand rounds of full-charge reloaded defense ammunition – “Hardball” and some hollow points – through this one .45 in just five days! If it could be done!

    The Black Hills ammunition was brought into Bulls Eye Marksman’s state-of-the-art range a few cases at a time. Mike West was there again to chronicle the events. Sid Woodcock and Peter Dunn were present and ever watchful. The Detonics Collectors Association was represented by David Stillwell.

    From the very first, getting magazines loaded and reloaded rapidly enough proved a more serious challenge than anticipated. At times, four people were required just to keep up. As many as 500 rounds were fired in as little as ten minutes!

    Soon, the intrepid shooters were forced to don gloves and still the heat generated by the end of each 5 hundred-round session was so intense that the pistol would get too hot to touch. The trigger could actually sear flesh, the slide and barrel hotter still.

    Gingerly because of the heat, Peter would hold the pistol in front of one of the air conditioning ducts. As soon as the pistol could be touched, Peter carefully disassembled and inspected it. But, he never cleaned it with any solvents, the gun filthy. The major components would be wiped off with a paper towel, one of the pistol’s own parts used to chisel away an ever-growing gummy mass of unburned powder. There was some judicious use of a toothbrush and a Q-Tip. A little lubricant was applied and the gun was reassembled, reloaded by the next shooter and firing resumed.

    Each day, for four days, six thousand rounds were fired through the pistol. At times, there would be slow feeds due to the gummy gunpowder buildup. An assist with the thumb, a push on the slide, shooting continued.

    On the fifth day, having just learned that the Model 9-11-01 would be pushed still harder – beyond 30 thousand rounds – there occurred what was to be the solitary parts failure. Taking place somewhere between 27 thousand and 27 thousand 5 hundred rounds, the smaller, inner recoil spring broke. The shooter performing that 5 hundred round block never noticed, the pistol shooting on and on, the broken part only discovered as Peter undertook his regular inspection.

    Peter swapped out the broken spring for a new one and the test continued. Adrienne Baker, the sole female shooter, a crack shot but accustomed to milder 9mms, took up the .45 gauntlet. The test continued, Greg Boyer returning to the lists for these final sessions.

    The goal of 30 thousand rounds was reached, but already surpassed because an associate of David Stillwell had fired an “extra” 50 rounds from the gun earlier in the week. And, the gun had been fired after being shot out of the mortar. And, because of the name given to this Detonics USA combat pistol – the Model 9-11-01 – it was determined that an additional 911 rounds would be fired beyond the 30 thousand. Adrienne fired, then Greg, then Adrienne again, then Greg.

    The “magic” number of almost 31 thousand rounds was reached, surpassed!

    Adrienne was asked to fire a group for accuracy. Her hands bruised and burned, the Model 9-11-01 registered an impressive seven-shot string.

    Greg stepped up, using his customary aggressive Isosceles stance, firing a ragged one-hole 7-shot group into the bullseye of the Birchwood Casey Shoot-N-C Target.

    Peter Dunn, hands wracked with pain from loading thousands and thousands of rounds into the 9-11-01’s magazines, sat at an impromptu bench rest and fired, registering one solitary perfect hole dead center on the bullseye with all 5 shots.

    The “ugly duckling” Model 9-11-01 had earned a new nickname: SUPERGUN

  13. #13
    Member Array HeadHunterII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    And HeadHunterII, if you think that a random, fresh out of the box 1911 is going to be as reliable as a random, fresh out of the box Glock, you haven't been paying very close attention over the last 20 years.
    And why not? Explain more. Tell me why a original design JMB 1911 will not be as reliable as a Glock. I trust my life to my 1911, I don't need your skewed perception of a "reliable" gun to make me feel safe. I carry a Kimber Custom II. When I purchased it all of my friends and even the local paper pusher down at the gun shop tried to tell me that it would be unreliable and need repair often. Guess what, 3,000 rounds and not a single hiccup that couldn't be traced back to the original stamped metal magazine. Purchased some Wilson Combat mags and I haven't had a single failure to feed, fire or eject.

    I don't try and push my friends and family away from different guns that they choose to buy. I don't care if you carry plastic, stainless steel or nerf guns for that matter. You like what you like and I like what I like. You don't have to attempt to sell me on a glock fella, your opinion means zip to me. I am a big boy and believe it or not, I make decisions all by myself. I carry my 1911 because it suits me.

    You say I haven't been paying close attention for the past 20 years or so and that may be the case but I do know that over the past 3 years Glocks are being swapped out at police stations around the country for S&W M&P's and SA XD's.
    "The will to survive is not as important as the will to prevail... The answer to criminal aggression is retaliation."-- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC.

    "We didn't fight our way all the way to the top of the food chain to become vegetarians."-- Unknown

  14. #14
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    I really believe that one specific make and model of handgun is not totally reliable at the expense of all other handguns.
    There are many totally reliable and trusted firearms out there.
    As far as I'm concerned Torture testing is sort of Fantasy Island anyway.
    While on one hand it's nice to know what any firearm is potentially capable of concerning surviving absolutely unreal and torturous extreme circumstances...I really don't know of many folks that would rip 1,000 rounds through their personal Self~Defense firearm and then carry it for personal protection without ever cleaning it.

    Firearms/Handguns were reliable and have served their intended purpose very well before Glocks were invented.
    I have a lot of respect for Glock handguns.
    Their functional reliability is somewhat amazing but, they are not for everybody.
    For me personally (with regard to Glock ergonomics and point-ability) they are terrible.
    That is why I don't make a habit of carrying one.
    I am accustomed to a short, crisp SA trigger and I don't like a long trigger pull very much.
    So for me the reliability advantage is negated by everything else that I cannot personally tolerate in a self defense handgun.
    But, I can only say that Glocks just don't work for me.
    I have nothing against their use by anybody else that happens to love them or can shoot them accurately.
    It's whatever floats your boat to save your own bacon.
    Many problems with the 1911 can be traced to a few things.
    One is that there are a ton of totally crap magazines floating around out there of questionable quality.
    And one other is that the extractor needs to be perfectly tuned.
    Another is that many 1911s have the wrong weight recoil spring installed.
    Most recoil springs are too heavy because "Frame Battering" has been way overplayed as a potential problem.
    Recoil springs that are way to heavy have been installed to "save" the frame but, in reality the steel frame does not need saving.
    Perhaps the investment cast or lighter alloy frames might but, not the steel frames milled/machined from bar stock.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunterII View Post
    And why not? Explain more. Tell me why a original design JMB 1911 will not be as reliable as a Glock.
    First, I don't carry or use a Glock, so I have no dog in that fight. But why not? Many reasons...

    The 1911 is produced by many manufacturers, some better than others. A random 1911 pattern pistol may be from a good manufacturer, or it may not.

    The 1911 has more parts, and more small parts. All other things being equal, more parts means more parts that can break.

    Even most 1911 enthusiasts will recommend a "break in" period for a new 1911, to allow the pistol to smooth itself out (for lack of a better term) and function properly. No one recommends that for a Glock, because they work from round one.

    There is a cottage (hell, mansion) industry built around making the 1911 "better." Polish this, replace that, tune the other... I understand that most of this work is unnecessary and done more for "vanity" (again, for lack of a better term), but I've never seen anyone have to "fluff and buff" a Glock...

    As for why Glock is losing market share (if in fact they are), I can assure you it's not for reliability issues. The new kids on the block are new - which is a selling point all its own, and they have features like adjustable grip (stock) sizes that might make them more attractive to departments and agencies.

    And, finally, I'm not disparaging the 1911 - it has its place, and is certainly a viable platform. I'm not at all saying that they can't be reliable, or even that a majority of them are unreliable. I'm just saying that if I was under attack, and I saw a 1911 that I knew nothing about and a Glock that I knew nothing about sitting next to each other, I would grab the Glock over the 1911 any day.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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