Nurse Practitioner Asked Gun Question... - Page 3

Nurse Practitioner Asked Gun Question...

This is a discussion on Nurse Practitioner Asked Gun Question... within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Why not get an appointment with the doctor to discuss this rationally? Tell him you are not upset about his raising the topic itself...Its just ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Why not get an appointment with the doctor to discuss this rationally?

    Tell him you are not upset about his raising the topic itself...Its just that if his staff completely omitted any other dangers in their talk to your children.

    Did they discuss risky sexual behavior that teens may engage in? Drugs & Alcohol? Drunk driving. The dangers of household chemicals?

    Why the focus on guns? Why not be more concerned about teen pregnancy or HIV?

    Furthermore, you'd like to know what expertise he or his staff have in the area of Home Safety Counseling.

    In addition to that, you would like to know if he is covered under his malpractice insurance to offer firearm related advice.

    Then ask him to sign off on this:

    http://www.2ampd.net/Articles/horn2/...ice%20Form.pdf


  2. #32
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    I don't care for the question either. My answer would be a smile and say "next question".

    As far as them asking my kids about guns in the home (it has never happened to us). I'd say that 10% of idiot parents created that question for all of us, and that affects the other 90% of responsible gun owner/parents who don't need to be asked about guns in the home. How is the interviewer supposed to know the difference, so they apparently ask everyone?

    In a related matter I'll tell you another question you won't like, that they might ask your kids. Let's say that your kid is playing outside and they hurt themselves on their head or back and you take them to the ER. I'll bet a nurse or doctor might ask your child does "mommy or daddy ever hit you"?

    I'll reinforce what I said at the beginning, I don't like the question either, but I think it's an attempt at preventing the accidental death of a child that lives in a house where guns are accessible to them. I think we (on this forum) are all pretty safety conscious, and I read horror stories here of ND/AD/lasering at the gun store, range and at home. The medical community directly sees the results of kid involved injuries from non-secured guns in the home, and that's generated that question. Funny thing though, shouldn't they ask about scissors, gasoline, poisons, knives, go-carts, bike helmets etc? I think what hacks us responsible people off, is that it seems to be singling out the "evil gun" only !
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senseiturtle View Post
    It's not an issue of elitism, it's an issue of what is expected of physicians. I am in no position to tell you how to run your life, but I must do my job. If my job is to ask questions, then I'll do it.

    Sure, I advocate possession of a car and airplane tickets. I personally advocate the possession of a weapon by EDUCATED, TRAINED, and/or otherwise RESPONSIBLE individuals.

    However, the comparison of weapon possession to car possession is a pretty weak one. Sure, vehicles kill lots of people each year, but so does smoking. So does drowning. So, right after we ban firearms, we can go ahead an ban cigarettes, cars, and water. We'll lock everyone in padded cells. Absolute nonsense! Life is deadly. I don't know anyone who's gotten through it alive.

    The difference is, most people NEED a car to hold down a job, get groceries, and survive. People NEED water to survive. But, 90% + of professions out there do not require carrying a firearm. These individuals do not technically NEED a firearm to carry out day-to-day activities, yet many choose to own one. This is either a good decision, or a bad decision, but either way it is an additional risk.

    It is this "additional risk" that gets built into the S.O.P. safety examination. Sure, I'd be willing to bet you are a safe and responsible parent, but unfortunately it's our job to identify some pretty bad parents, and hopefully step in before things really go sour.

    I apologize for getting you so worked up in the middle of the night, but I hope that you can see things from our point of view. I'd rather not have to ask those questions, but if I don't, my arse might end up as a defendant.
    Sounds like you're in the wrong profession. Perhaps you should be in LE? Because that's really what you're trying to accomplish. Sorry can't help it. This is exactly why I don't like going to the doctors. It's none of your DAMN BUSINESS! As for your "need" commnts. You're completely off base. Profession doesn't define NEED. LIFE defines it.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senseiturtle View Post
    These individuals do not technically NEED a firearm to carry out day-to-day activities
    I'm in a better position than you are to determine whether I NEED a firearm to carry out day-to-day activities. Been watching the news lately? Swarms of motorcyclists harrassing drivers, now escalating to firing into the car? I drive the same roads daily that these particular cyclists drive... and I could give 10,000 more examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by senseiturtle View Post
    This is either a good decision, or a bad decision, but either way it is an additional risk.
    What's the additional risk of not having a firearm? If you asked the doctor from Cheshire, CT, whose wife and daughters were raped and killed, you might get an inkling of the "additional risk" of not having a firearm handy.

    I can make these decisions for my own family, thank you. And apparently much better than you can.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Profession doesn't define NEED. LIFE defines it.
    Excellent response.

    Why is this so hard for some people to understand? People who don't understand this aren't living in the real world. It may take a dose of reality, such as a home invasion or armed robbery, to wake some people up... if they survive it, which may largely be based on the BG's mood at the time since they themselves are unarmed. I'm not interested in having my existence or the existence of my family determined by the actions/mood of some BG.

    The stupidity of humans amazes me sometimes. Just let me make up my own mind on what is a threat to my family and what isn't. And don't dare try to tell me how to protect my family. If your advice doesn't include a gun, your advice is flawed.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senseiturtle View Post
    These questions are simply an attempt to evaluate the child's well-being, in the essence of whether or not there is danger around them, because it actually IS the physician's responsibility to do something about it if they suspect undue danger or abuse. The AMA must publicly denounce all weapons due to the fact that it is an item designed to cause harm. It'd be pretty hypocritical to advocate weapon possession when the sole reason for the existence of physicians is to heal..
    These quotes are where I have a problem. It is the physician's responsibility to invade our privacy to impose his or her own personal belief's on us?

    I have gotten along for 55 years without having my doctor monitor my home or the way I raised my daughter. To suggest that he needs to do so is insulting.

    Also, the idea that the AMA must denouce firearms is ludicrous. They should consider that many of the victims they try to piece back together could have been saved if they had a gun.

    My experience with many (not all) doctors is that they are extremely arrogant. When my mother was dying of cancer she made the unpardenable sin of call the doctor "Mr." He went into a tirade of how long he went to school to be called "Dr." I almost cut off his little speech by making him a patient right then and there but cooler heads prevailed.

    I guess I must be lucky. My doctor is a great guy. He spends his time on MEDICAL ISSUES like treating our illnesses. . . . a novel concept, huh? He doesn't monitor my home or tell me what to drive.

    Also, he takes his own kids shooting frequently.

    To the original poster - I would change doctors immediately and let him know why.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  7. #37
    Member Array senseiturtle's Avatar
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    Wavlord - Obviously, I do not need to answer for the actions of another individual, especially when I don't agree with the question in the first place.

    Generally, physicians must ask the questions if they have direct and reasonable circumstantial evidence that points in the direction of child maltreatment. If a child looks undernourished, we ask about eating habits or neglect. If a child has an upper femur fracture, we ask about potential abuse.

    Was the N.P. just following S.O.P. and doing a simple safety screening? Maybe. Was the N.P. trying to push an agenda? Maybe. I will say this though, if I were the physician in this case, I'd skip that section. It's a routine physical on a healthy child, afterall. There ARE, however, some hypothetical situations where I would feel justified in asking that question, whether S.O.P. or not, but a simple sign-off on high school athletics has little to do with the currently discussed controversy.

    Situationally, it is not necessary to ask about firearms. I wouldn't have done it.

    As a general rule, should we ask? - here's where we get the debate. I think in some situations it would be appropriate, but in the vast majority, certainly not. Problem is, there's a big push to streamline the "standard of care," and physicians are being taken out of the value judgments of a particular test or question.
    -----------------------------------------------------------


    Anubis.
    You're absolutely right regarding NEED. I don't NEED to survive an armed home invasion, a carjacking, or other random thuggery. I just WANT to have a chance to do so. I balance the risk of having a firearm handy versus the risk of being killed because I don't.
    I completely agree!

    __________________

    Pitmaster- Excellent point about what's going to get spread to you. I guess we can only expect more from the nanny state.

    ----------
    Self Defense - I may be way off base, but I thought your job was Heal the Sick and Injured. Since when is it a doctor's job to identify bad parents? Now you're the judge of parenting skills, too?
    Correct, my job is to heal the sick and injured. However, with the (thankfuly outgoing) "age of paternalism" came the responsibility of preventative care. Therefore, the traditional role of the physician has societally evolved from "damage control" to "preventing the damage in the first place." This is why we now have osteopathic doctors in addition to allopathic doctors.

    I wouldn't phrase it as "judge of parenting skills," more along the lines of "advocate of child welfare." While it ALWAYS offends the parent when his/her parenting skills are questioned, I guarantee that lives have been saved due to pulling a child out of an abusive or overtly dangerous household. Every decision we make has a risk/benefit weight to it, and the -POTENTIAL- benefit of saving a child's life far outweighs the risk of annoying a parent.

    -----------------------------


    To the long posts citing research surveys - I agree. Am I not a member of this site? Though readers might have touble seeing this, I'm not here to stir up trouble,
    simply to illustrate another point of view, one THAT I DO NOT AGREE WITH.

    My favorite is the US Injury deaths for children survey. I've always enjoyed those statistics. But, let's look at it another way....

    How many people would die each year as a result of lack of medicine and medical professionals? FAR, FAR more than 120,000 per year. The risk of having a physician make a mistake is FAR outweighed by the lives we save and enrich every day.

    In addition, you're comparing gun accidents in killing children to physician accidents killing all ages. That isn't a fair comparison. Simply a minor point-

    Let's throw in - How many guns are intentionally used in crime every day? How many physicians intentionally use their profession to commit crime?


    Comparing malpractice to accidental gun violence doesn't work due to the natures of the two beasts.

    -------------------------------------



    PPKheat - BINGO ! As far as I'm concerned, you hit the nail right on the head! I'll quote you for reference.

    I don't care for the question either. My answer would be a smile and say "next question".

    As far as them asking my kids about guns in the home (it has never happened to us). I'd say that 10% of idiot parents created that question for all of us, and that affects the other 90% of responsible gun owner/parents who don't need to be asked about guns in the home. How is the interviewer supposed to know the difference, so they apparently ask everyone?

    In a related matter I'll tell you another question you won't like, that they might ask your kids. Let's say that your kid is playing outside and they hurt themselves on their head or back and you take them to the ER. I'll bet a nurse or doctor might ask your child does "mommy or daddy ever hit you"?

    I'll reinforce what I said at the beginning, I don't like the question either, but I think it's an attempt at preventing the accidental death of a child that lives in a house where guns are accessible to them. I think we (on this forum) are all pretty safety conscious, and I read horror stories here of ND/AD/lasering at the gun store, range and at home. The medical community directly sees the results of kid involved injuries from non-secured guns in the home, and that's generated that question. Funny thing though, shouldn't they ask about scissors, gasoline, poisons, knives, go-carts, bike helmets etc? I think what hacks us responsible people off, is that it seems to be singling out the "evil gun" only !
    -
    Sounds like you're in the wrong profession. Perhaps you should be in LE? Because that's really what you're trying to accomplish. Sorry can't help it. This is exactly why I don't like going to the doctors. It's none of your DAMN BUSINESS! As for your "need" commnts. You're completely off base. Profession doesn't define NEED. LIFE defines it.
    Good quote.

    It's not my job to enforce laws, just clean up the mess. Whether the BG or victim, I have to treat them the same. You're going to get the same standard of care for a gunshot wound, whether you broke into the house, or were defending the house.

    It IS my job to identify risks and promote discussion about risk evaluation. If you smoke, I'm gonna talk to you about it. If you're hypertensive, overweight, alcoholic, etc. etc., it IS my job to talk to you about it. If there are any direct safety issues present in the household that arise during an S.O.P. child safety evaluation, you're gonna hear about it. I might not think it's necessary, but that's the beauty of taking judgements away from physicians... they get passed onto the HMO or whoever else makes the directives.

    Though fundamentally I agree with you, the point of the "need" conversation was food for thought against the whole gun/automobile comparison. With pretty much everything we choose in life, we weigh costs/risks/benefits. I know I don't NEED a firearm, per-se. I know that I do NEED a car. Call me crazy, but I think more people NEED and use cars everyday than NEED and use firearms. The simple fact that you have more people participating skews the raw data figures.

    More apples to oranges conversation, but food for thought.
    -----------------------


    Grady-
    Yes you are in a better position to evaluate whether or not you NEED a firearm, in addition to whether or not you NEED a vehicle, etc. But it is your responsibility to make the intelligent decision either way. The issue is more along the lines of risk assessment and discussion, rather than "is it right to own a firearm."

    Risk of not having a firearm -
    I agree. This is why I bought one.

    Make decisions for your family-
    Ah, here's the caveat. I agree, I wouldn't want people making decisions for me either... but several professionals are being forced to ask the questions and intervene under the banner of safety and prevention. I'm sure those completely unfit parents are quite pissed off that a physician reported abuse to L.E. and had their child taken from them. Thing is, children's lives HAVE been saved by asking these questions and making these judgments. But, a balance between intervention and a right to privacy must be maintained, and it's in those gray areas that we get the overstepping of bounds.

    I'm not saying you're a bad parent... In fact, it appears to me in my limited observation that you're quite the opposite. But, what a person thinks he/she is, often doesn't align with what they are.


    -----------------------------------------
    Why is this so hard for some people to understand? People who don't understand this aren't living in the real world. It may take a dose of reality, such as a home invasion or armed robbery, to wake some people up... if they survive it, which may largely be based on the BG's mood at the time since they themselves are unarmed. I'm not interested in having my existence or the existence of my family determined by the actions/mood of some BG.

    The stupidity of humans amazes me sometimes. Just let me make up my own mind on what is a threat to my family and what isn't. And don't dare try to tell me how to protect my family. If your advice doesn't include a gun, your advice is flawed.
    ------


    Excellent! You've just outlined why I own gun(s). I agree with you.I have weighed the risks of owning vs. not owning, and have chosen to own. The smoker must weigh the risks of lighting up, and make a decision. The automobile driver weighs the risks of turning the key, and makes a decision.

    But the conversation is whether or not the physician is justified in asking questions and giving advice in risk-assessment situations. There are some situations where asking about firearms MAY be warranted, but it's not going to apply to over 95% of the people who'll get asked that question. It's that 5% that make the difference.

    That's the reasoning of whoever wrote the S.O.P., that is.
    ================================================== ===============================



    I will not have access to the internet for a few days, so I'll try to continue contributing whenever I get back online. I want to thank many of you for the civil conversation in this matter. Some excellent points have been made, including a few that made me think more about the issue. I hope it has done the same for you and the casual reader.

  8. #38
    Member Array senseiturtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    These quotes are where I have a problem. It is the physician's responsibility to invade our privacy to impose his or her own personal belief's on us?
    Absolutely not. There are lots of specific stated and unstated rules about what physicians should and should not say. It is his responsibility to evaluate risk factors, sure.

    A physician cannot command you to stop smoking. However, he can point out the risk factors associated with it. If the firearm discussion is even warranted, then he cannot command you to get rid of them, just encourage you to consider risks associated with it.... which, hopefully you've done anyway.

    I have gotten along for 55 years without having my doctor monitor my home or the way I raised my daughter. To suggest that he needs to do so is insulting.
    Agree. Though, I will say, he is societally required to make a call when abuse is suspected. He just never had any reason to suspect you or your household. As insulting as it is, it's unfortunately necessary, since lives have been saved.

    Also, the idea that the AMA must denouce firearms is ludicrous. They should consider that many of the victims they try to piece back together could have been saved if they had a gun.
    To be honest, I'm not sure why they chose a stance in the first place. But the decision to take a stance, and the stance they take, are 2 different issues.

    I disagree with the fact they took a stance... Should have kept their mouths shut... But once they chose to take a stance, they were obligated to take the "anti" stance, because of the nature of weapons in general... which goes against the Hippocratic oath. Overall, dumb move.

    My experience with many (not all) doctors is that they are extremely arrogant. When my mother was dying of cancer she made the unpardenable sin of call the doctor "Mr." He went into a tirade of how long he went to school to be called "Dr." I almost cut off his little speech by making him a patient right then and there but cooler heads prevailed.
    Ya know, I really agree with this! I made the same mistake at my medical school, calling a Ph.D. "mrs." instead of "doctor". Wow, did I get an ass-chewing! I think they're sometimes more defensive of that term than M.D.'s.

    I think that I'll eventually have my patients refer to me by my first name, or whatever they choose as long as it's not obscene or inappropriate. I don't need to be consistently reminded of the hell I'm currently experiencing to get the title... and I think the whole fact that the patient is honoring me with their presence and trusting me with their lives is plenty of "respect."


    I guess I must be lucky. My doctor is a great guy. He spends his time on MEDICAL ISSUES like treating our illnesses. . . . a novel concept, huh? He doesn't monitor my home or tell me what to drive.

    Also, he takes his own kids shooting frequently.

    To the original poster - I would change doctors immediately and let him know why.
    Happy to hear you've had a positive experience. Not all physicians are BG's !

    I agree... there are plenty of physicians out there... Let's let free market forces do their job

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
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    Wow, some people are touchy on this subject! I don't see a problem with them asking, only if they attempted to chastise for owning. Believe it or not, it IS a public health concern and someone has to help weed out the idiot owners.

    I'm sure most gun owners on forums like this take ownership seriously, but I'm sure there's just as many that don't. What if some kid was growing up in a druggy house with guns laying around, needles, etc. A simple question by a health care worker, teacher, etc., may help save lives. I view this similar to how doctors/nurses have to screen kids (by law, I think) for symptoms of abuse.

    Also look at another public health issue, sex ed. I don't think the family only route was working to well, and they had to start doing it in schools when I was growing up ('60's).

    Maybe they should start teaching gun safety in schools, instead of sticking their head in the sand and freak out over 5-yr olds drawing pictures of them!

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Senseiturtle,

    Thanks for not taking my response personally. I just see the issue of a doctor asking my daughter about firearms in the home as an issue that is none of the doctor's business, not now, and not ever.

    I just had my annual physical. Now I wonder if the doctor was going to ask me about firearms, but I guess I'll never know--I beat her to it and brought up the subject myself. Haha! We have a good relationship and I don't mind discussing the subject. Different story, though, with my daughter, who has a different doctor. Not the doctor's business unless I initiate the conversation.

    I see mandated discussion of firearms during a doctor's visit as another intrusion that might be used against me someday.

  11. #41
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    Generally, physicians must ask the questions if they have direct and reasonable circumstantial evidence that points in the direction of child maltreatment. If a child looks undernourished, we ask about eating habits or neglect. If a child has an upper femur fracture, we ask about potential abuse.
    Sounds reasonable... So, when a child comes in with a gunshot wound, then you can ask if there are firearms in the home....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #42
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    This is a good resource for this issue.

    http://www.claremont.org/projects/pr...ect_detail.asp

  13. #43
    Member Array senseiturtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    This is a good resource for this issue.

    http://www.claremont.org/projects/pr...ect_detail.asp
    Excellent resource. I hope it catches on!

    Isn't it funny how things that used to not be issues in the past are now at the forefront of debate?

    A few hundred years ago, no one would question the ownership of a shotgun. In fact, non-possession would have been a curiosity. Now, in England, a country who used to pride itself on gentlemanly shooting sports requires strictly-mandated permits for shotguns! How times have changed!

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Believe it or not, it IS a public health concern and someone has to help weed out the idiot owners.
    So i take it you favor some form of an iq test before a gun can be purchased ? Just what would your minimum standards be ?

    I dont see it as a public health issue whom owns guns . I see it as a deeply personal issue that each must decide for themselves with minimal restrictions and no coercion.

    Since the focus of this thread ( re the ama's stance and healthcare folks questioning gun ownership ) seems to be accidental shootings i would like to refer you to this page http://www.progressiveu.org/025114-t...-gun-accidents

    Have a look and come on back . Now keeping in mind that only gas kills less lets allow ourselves to speculate just why the ama and other medical clubs singled out firearms as the bane of life enough to make it virtually a sole issue .

    Could it be that like the democrat party they have been taken over at the top by radicals , and likely some of the same radicals ?

    My MD does not bother me with such foolish questions about what is in my house . Nor do the local Democrats worry overmuch about issues such as same sex marrage , schip , ect..

    Some Doctors like some lawyers , social workers, school officials and heck even neighbors tend to worry overmuch about the habits of others and not enough about what they really should be doing at any given point .

    I for one feel gratified that so many educated folk have nothing better to do with their day than insure the welfare of myself and my family. Honestly they are not blissninny busybodys they are in fact trained professionals who know better than I how i should live and what i should own . IMHO Orwell wasnt far off with his book 1984 . The thought police are everywhere and I stay non pc just to keep them on their toes .. While they are disapproving of me they are leaving you alone LOL .

    senseiturtle Not to single you out but what i expect from your profession is that if i come in with a cold or the clap treat me , set my fracture or sew me up as needed . Wish me well and send me on my way then , but while you do the above stay the hell out of my home . Do not treat my children or grandchildren as informers in a base manner that would make a cop blush . You have neither the duty , nor the right to go beyond the boundary of your profession in any manner , and this type questioning if done by LE would land an officer in jail . The threats that may or may not be in a home are simply NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS unless and until someone is hurt . Then a call to LE may be appropriate to hold the party (s ) responsible for the issue that caused harm . Until then i suggest you omit the prying questions and possibly use the saved time to get in an extra round of golf a week , or better yet a few more hours at the range yourself LOL .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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  15. #45
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    I, for one, do not want my physician to make a "note in the file"--that all of a sudden ends up in some bureaucrats (gov't or insurance carrier) that indicates there is a gun in the home...that will affect my civil liberties or my insurance coverage. IOW--NOYFB....
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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