Are Glocks and XDs a flawed design due pulling the trigger before dissassembly

This is a discussion on Are Glocks and XDs a flawed design due pulling the trigger before dissassembly within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; OPFOR, I'm not trying to convince you a grip safety is a bad idea. I'm simply saying it's odd to me that we see a ...

View Poll Results: Are Glocks and XDs a flawed design (pulling trigger to disassemble)

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  • What's a Glock or XD?

    0 0%
  • Yes, this is unsafe and should be changed.

    19 13.10%
  • No, your safety is in your head and following the 4 rules.

    115 79.31%
  • Never had one, maybe never will.

    11 7.59%
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Thread: Are Glocks and XDs a flawed design due pulling the trigger before dissassembly

  1. #31
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    OPFOR,

    I'm not trying to convince you a grip safety is a bad idea. I'm simply saying it's odd to me that we see a need for a safety on one gun and not another. Do we really believe that the little bit of extra trigger weight and pull distance on a Glock makes it some how more inherently safe?

    Let's consider that. On a revolver, the DA is drastically different than it's SA trigger pull. DA trigger pull is somewhere around 11 lbs or so and a looonnng pull. But a Glock trigger pull, IIRC, is no more than about a 1/4" with a pull weight of about 5 lbs. A 1911 has a trigger pull of about 1/16" and a pull weight of about 5 lbs.

    Am I to believe that about 3/16 of an inch difference between the Glock and 1911 makes the Glock significantly safer or more resistant to a UD?
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  3. #32
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    Glocks start around 5.5lbs, and the 1911s I've come across were in the 3-4lb neighborhood. Plus, there is the trigger paddle safety on the Glock. Plus (as RR has so eloquently pointed out), a cocked and unlocked 1911 is cocked; a Glock in its normal state is not.

    And in any case, why are we talking about the 1911? The question was about the Glock/XD, and the answer is the same: clear the weapon, and you can pull the trigger all day long with no ill effects. Fail to clear the weapon (any weapon) and pull the trigger, and your day just got a lot worse.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    RR,

    What would make the hammer release from the sear without the trigger being pulled? A drop perhaps? Probably not, because even if the sear bounced lose from the hammer, the sear would likely re-engage on the half cock sears preventing a discharge.
    the hammer wont drop , but with a " soft " primer the fireing pin has mass enough to set the round off on a drop of a pre 80 series 1911 . with an 80 series and later the 1911 has a plunger to lock the fireing pin unless and untillthe trigger is fully pulled . This is an abomination to the puresits of the cult of JMB , but in fact a fine 1911 trigger pull can be done with the safety in place , it is just harder and costs more lol .
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to convince you a grip safety is a bad idea. I'm simply saying it's odd to me that we see a need for a safety on one gun and not another.
    Tangle if you study the 1911 you will realise that there were a lot of changes made from the 1903 acp which was submitted to the 1911 that was adopted by the government , one of which was a specificly asked for grip safety due to the calvery troops which were to use it . Then we have the evolution from the 1911 to the 1911ax that you are likley to be familiar with today . IMHO the grip safety has hung in there simply because it was in the original contract , and no one has yet shown colt ( or anyone else for that matter ) how it is a harm .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  6. #35
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    RR,

    If a non-series 80 is dropped with the thumb safety engaged, it can most certainly fire via the inertia of the firing pin. That's why the series 80 and the grip safety FP block were introduced. The thumb safety has absolutely nothing to do with preventing a drop discharge. If it did, the firing pin block would not be needed.

    In non-series 80 series guns, such as Wilson Combat, a Titanium FP and a stronger FP return spring is used to prevent an inertial discharge.

    But we've moved from operator error to drop discharges. Given that the drop discharge safeties are present in both Glocks and 1911s, and further given the thumb safety will not prevent a drop discharge, but the internal FP blocks will, I have to ask again, what is the purpose of the thumb safety?
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Tangle if you study the 1911 you will realise that there were a lot of changes made from the 1903 acp which was submitted to the 1911 that was adopted by the government , one of which was a specificly asked for grip safety due to the calvery troops which were to use it . Then we have the evolution from the 1911 to the 1911ax that you are likley to be familiar with today . IMHO the grip safety has hung in there simply because it was in the original contract , and no one has yet shown colt ( or anyone else for that matter ) how it is a harm .
    RR,

    I've built 6 1911s from scratch and they all run perfectly. I even built one with a the grip safety completely separate from the beavertail to reduce the risk of a grip safety block using a thumb over the thumb safety grip. Some seem to have this problem, others don't. I hand fitted and silver soldered the beavertail directly to the frame - you can hardly see the seam and if I showed you a picture of it, you wouldn't be able to tell it. The grip safety is fully functional.

    Actually the problem with the grip safety on 1911s is thoroughly documented. Many have the grip safety pinned because they get trigger blocks from the grip safety. Other solutions are those big bumps on the grip safety - those aren't there to improve looks.
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  8. #37
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    Sorry guys, I think your all wrong. No matter what safety is installed on your pistol, if your lax, lazy or stupid you're going to get bit.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #38
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    If a non-series 80 is dropped with the thumb safety engaged, it can most certainly fire via the inertia of the firing pin.
    Agreed lol , as i pointed out . Ill also point out that you asked why the grip safety exists , and just how it differs from the glock safety , I have explained both questions , the differ in some detail , and the why by alluding to the requirements for calvary troops which can be researched and read easliy by anyone online .

    Actually the problem with the grip safety on 1911s is thoroughly documented. Many have the grip safety pinned because they get trigger blocks from the grip safety. Other solutions are those big bumps on the grip safety - those aren't there to improve looks.
    Actualy there are NO or almost NO documented cases of the grip safety failing . There are however a buttload of cases whereby going to the modern grip ( thumb on top of some sort of extended mudflap ) the safety will not disengage because this creates a gap in the grip . This and this alone has led to both pinned safetys , and unsightly bumps on them . Myself i shoot that way and need a bumper to insure that i get it depressed every time . .. If we have moved on from the grip safety to the thumb/thumb off now i will do my best to give you an honest answer .
    The glock system as stated runs from a partial tension that is " pre cocked " but not "full cocked" . You can call it half cocked , 3/4 cocked ect .. it makes no difference to the operation . with the glock system you must by trigger complete the cock and release the striker . with the 1911 you must only release the hammer at cock , a much shorter stroke on a trigger that due to being short is more prone to happening when non intended . Now i personally think the flapper paddle on glocks , xd , and other immitaters is useless as any kind of safety but that is just me . You however cannnot even have a basic grasp of the mechanics of the actions and still with a straight face ask what good is a thumbsafety on a 1911 . Hell by my choice all pistols would have a1911 style safety to thumb off , and other than ergonomics i suspect its a good idea for double action revolvers also .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  10. #39
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    If you trust your Glock/XD to be safe enough to carry it around with one in the chamber and yourself enough to keep your finger off the trigger ,then to say you can't trust yourself to be sure the gun is unloaded before cleaning it is idiotic.

  11. #40
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    the gun is only as safe as the person carrying, operating and maintaining it. If there is a lack of grey matter between the ears, then a proportinately scaled accident will someday happen.....regardless of the firearm in question.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  12. #41
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    wow, it seems to me that there are diametrically opposed views of glock and 1911, but I tend to think the glock is safer due to its internal safety mechanisms. This whole deal about 1911's weighing less, safer with the hammer back and so on just doesn't add up to me. If I want true Browning design I'll go with the Hipower and bypass the Colt's version of it regardless of caliber.
    Colt has historically bullied brilliant gun designers and in the case of Stoner, his employer out of a military contract of the Ar-15 and Ar-10 only to watch Armalite file bankruptcy and then buy the Ar-15 design for a steal, leave out the chrome gas system, leave out the cleaning system and watch as GI's bite the bullet. This is why out of principle I will never buy a Colt AR, revolver (S&W improved the revolver design and added cartridges after making them) or a 1911 (because the HiPower is tops).

    The only draw back to the Glock's safety is that the only external safety is on the trigger so as it is depressed so goes the trigger and *bang*
    -But- if you are responsible with guns you should not have that problem ;)
    Last edited by Duisburg; November 8th, 2007 at 03:40 PM. Reason: wanted to add the Armalite story
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  13. #42
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    Anyone who cannot dissasemble and XD without being able to tell whether or not the chamber is empty, is a complete moron and should not be allowed to be anywhere near a firearm.

    You must lock the slide back in order to engage the lever that will allow the slide to come off. If with the slide locked back, you cannot tell there is a round in the chamber, (which by the way if there is one there, would have to have been manually placed there by you) you are a MORON!

    But then, that is just my humble opinion.

  14. #43
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    in a word, no....
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  15. #44
    VIP Member Array frankmako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    No. All firearms should (must) be cleared prior to disassembly. Operator stupidity at this level is not a design flaw.
    plus one on this.
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  16. #45
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    I dry fire every gun after "ASSEMBLY" to check functionality. Several times to be sure. Would be unwise not to do so...

    So why is it unwise to dry fire (for whatever reason) before? Same thing... gotta make sure its clear first.

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