Are Glocks and XDs a flawed design due pulling the trigger before dissassembly

This is a discussion on Are Glocks and XDs a flawed design due pulling the trigger before dissassembly within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by cphilip I dry fire every gun after "ASSEMBLY" to check functionality. Several times to be sure. Would be unwise not to do ...

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Thread: Are Glocks and XDs a flawed design due pulling the trigger before dissassembly

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    I dry fire every gun after "ASSEMBLY" to check functionality. Several times to be sure. Would be unwise not to do so...

    So why is it unwise to dry fire (for whatever reason) before? Same thing... gotta make sure its clear first.
    The NRA Pistol training endorses dry firing as a method of practice. Put away the ammo, check your gun to ensure it is empty, follow the rules and you should be fine.

    The other thing the NRA says is once you do load a gun you have been dry firing is say out loud three times, "This gun is loaded." They also say not to handle the gun for 15 minutes prior to loading it. This is to break the minor conditioning you did while dry firing the gun. Good advice if you ask me. Surely cannot hurt to do it that way, other than you may feel a bit odd saying, "This gun is loaded", to an empty room.
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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Good grief, what is all the discussion involving 1911's?? The question concerns Glocks and XD's. 1911's are not even in the mix!

  4. #48
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    I brought the 1911s into the mix to bring some perspective and balance. We completely accept the thumb safeties on 1911s, and as a matter of fact, Browning HiPowers, as necessary devices.

    I suspect that if Glocks were originally designed with a thumb safety, nobody would have thought a thing of it. Speaking of Glocks, let's talk about those three safeties. The three safeties on the Glock are for one purpose and one purpose only - to prevent a discharge if the pistol is dropped. That little flapper thingy in the trigger is part of the drop safety.

    Let's talk about the half cocked striker and see if that's really a safety. The trigger spring in a Glock actually pulls the trigger bar downward and rearward, in other words, it's trying to pull the trigger. When you rack the slide, the sear on the FP engages the sear on the trigger bar and pulls the trigger forward against the pressure of the trigger spring. This causes the FP to be blocked, lets the little flapper thingy engage the frame and that's about it.

    The little flapper thingy in the trigger prevents the trigger from moving in case of a drop. While we're here, let's go one step further. You know how some guys reduce the trigger pull on their competition Glocks by installing a reduced power firing pin spring? Let's think about that for a minute. What happens if that weaker FP spring cannot pull the trigger forward quite as much? The nub on the trigger bar that engages the FP block, may not move forward enough to engage. The trigger may not move forward enough to allow the little flapper in the trigger to engage. What kind of safety system do we have now?

    Now let's consider the XD. One reason that has been given that a Glock doesn't need a 'thumb safety', and I'm not saying it does, I'm just going through the logic, is that the striker is at half cock in a Glock and can't fire the gun. Well, that logic raises two questions. One, if the Glock won't fire because the striker is at half cock, why'd they go to the trouble of putting in all those other safeties? And, two, since an XD does have a fully cocked striker, does that mean it should have an external safety?

    BTW, somebody mentioned that they'd just go with the BHP instead of the 1911. It's been claimed that the BHP is the refined version of a 1911. Do you realize a BHP has a magazine disconnect safety and that was Browning's choice not the cavalry's requirement?

    We seemed to get lost a bit in delving into trigger mechanisms as if that were the deciding factor as to whether a gun needed a thumb safety (or external/manual safety) or not. But that's really got nothing to do with it. Nobody discusses the internal operations, etc. of a revolver to determine if it needs an external safety or not. The decision is purely based on what it takes to fire the gun, not the internal mechanisms. A revolver for example has a long, heavy trigger. That seems to be fully adequate.

    Next let's consider the extreme in the other direction - the short, lighter pull of a 1911. Since the 1911 lacks the long, heavy trigger pull, it seems that we readily accept the need for the thumb safety on a 1911.

    So how far is a Glock's trigger pull from a 1911? Well, by my measurements, a 1911 has a trigger pull of about 1/16" and a pull weight between 4.5 and 5.5 lbs. A Glock has a trigger pull of just a bit over 1/8" (I looked at that again last night) and a pull weight of about 5 lbs - at least that's what Glock specs it at.

    So let's see how that stacks up. The Glock has about 1/16" or so more travel than a 1911 and about the same trigger weight. Kinda makes one go hmmm...

    Since OPFOR stated that most 1911s had a trigger pull of more like 3.5 - 4.5 lbs, let me address that. If that's true, and that's a significant reason to justify a manual safety, I have to ask these two questions. One, does that imply that the tactical Glocks (34 & 35 with 3.5 lb connectors) should have a manual safety for the same reason, and two, if I increase the trigger pull weight of my 1911 to 5.5 lbs minimum, would that justify not using a manual safety?

    That really levels the playing field. The exact same trigger weight, and very nearly the same trigger travel (measured after take up). Certainly not equivalent triggers but pretty close.

    There is a perception that Glocks need a manual safety. Perhaps a matter of personal preference, perhaps a reality. I know when I carry one of my Glocks, I am forever aware that if anything gets in the trigger while holstering, there isn't a thing in the world to keep if from discharging and there have been a number of valid reports of this very thing happening. When I carry an XD, I make sure my hand is off the grip safety and hence there is no danger of a UD. When I carry a 1911, I holster with my thumb on the thumb safety. When I carry my Sig or Berettas, I holster with my thumb on the hammer so I'll know immediately if the hammer is trying to cock. A Glock has NO SAFETIES that address this issue. The same is true when I carry my M&P. Although if there's any doubt, I remove the mag and get another layer of protection via the mag disconnect, holster and reinsert the mag.

    But, again, this comes down to personal preferences. I think we need to understand that not all people that have had UDs are dummies. I know of some very competent, intelligent trainers that have had UDs. We need to understand there's nothing wrong with a thumb safety on a Glock for those that want them and there's nothing wrong with not wanting them. After all this, I have chosen not to install a thumb safety on my Glocks. But, if Glock manufacturers a Glock with an external thumb safety, I won't hesitate to buy one.
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  5. #49
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    Well said, Tangle. I'm actually in your camp on this to a large extent - I don't think the 1911 needs a thumb safety, either, if the pull is actually 5+ lbs. However, saying that the pull length on the Glock is 'only slightly more than 1/16th of an inch longer than the 1911' is a bit misleading, because this is in fact more than double the length of pull of said 1911.

    And, of course compentent people will occasionally have a UD (remember my post about the DEA/SWAT/Marine who fired a .40S&W from a .45ACP?), but the question was simply about the disassembly procedures of the Glock/XD, and my answer remains the same: Clear the weapon, and it is safe. Don't clear it, and it is unsafe. Pulling the trigger is a non-issue.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #50
    Member Array S3ymour's Avatar
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    In the latest gunsandammo mag there is a picture of john brownings actual carry 1911 and guess what....no thumb safety. Just thought that was interesting.

  7. #51
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    Tangle, I responded on the other post, ironically before I read this one, and basically you've validated my stance: if you double the sear engagement surface on a 1911 hammer, and keep a modest take-up, I would have no problem carrying one "safety-less." I have not built a 1911 from scratch, but have reworked a few (4 IIRC), and the triggers were more akin to my Steyr SBS with its 2.8# trigger than a SIG DAK- no takeup and cruising at 4-5#.

    What is being ignored is the fact that people intentionally going in harms way have traditionally negated many safety features. The Phillipino hitman, referenced in an episode of Miami Vice, who carried a 1911 pinned and the thumb safety removed (TPI had a good vid clip of him actually shooting); the revolver featured in (IIRC) Handguns not too many years ago with the cut-away triggerguard, bobbed hammer worked action- it was based on a revo done for Applegait or Fairbairne, someone with better memory can source it, I'm sure.

    Bottom line: bad things happen to good & careful people in moments of carelessness. Period. End of story. It may be in a car, it may be with a double action revolver, etc., etc..

    They are dangerous- if we can't be conscious of handling to the degree the implement demands, we should not be handling it. Why do most hunting rifles come with 6-8# triggers? Yeah, most guys can't handle a "good trigger" safely in the field.

    True of high performance cars, too...

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3ymour View Post
    In the latest gunsandammo mag there is a picture of john brownings actual carry 1911 and guess what....no thumb safety. Just thought that was interesting.
    You sure it was 'no thumb safety' or was it a no grip safety?

    Oh, and let me make this clear, I'm not at all campaigning for Glocks to have a thumb safety or 1911s to not have. I was merely pointing out that we seem to feel the brain is sufficient with one gun (the Glock) but it's not with another (the 1911).
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  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    ...However, saying that the pull length on the Glock is 'only slightly more than 1/16th of an inch longer than the 1911' is a bit misleading, because this is in fact more than double the length of pull of said 1911....
    Yep, percentage wise the difference is huge. But what your finger actually has to do and the additional distance the trigger has to travel, 1/16" more, is very small and that little bit could almost be considered negligible even though it seems very different by percentage.
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  10. #54
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    It had the grip safety, but there was no thumb safety. On gunsand ammo combat tactics magazine page 77, John Brownings personal 1911 a model 1910 prototype, serial number 3 with grip safety but no thumb safety.

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3ymour View Post
    It had the grip safety, but there was no thumb safety. On gunsand ammo combat tactics magazine page 77, John Brownings personal 1911 a model 1910 prototype, serial number 3 with grip safety but no thumb safety.
    Wow! Interesting, the gun god himself had no thumb safety on his carry gun.

    I know one gun manufacturer or gunsmith, can't remember which, has introduced a 1911 without a grip safety.
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  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    If you can't safetly operate your weapon (stupidity) than you shouldn't be operating it AT ALL.

    (XD)Its not hard to remove a magazine,rack the slide and lock it. If theres a round in the chamber, you just ejected it. Push up the front lever,and release the slide to its resting position. You can see by the loaded chamber indicator its not loaded,and you know its not loaded as you've already removed the round in the chamber,and there was no magazine to reload it. If you feel uncomfortable,you can rack the slide again and see that there isn't a round in the chamber.


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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Tangle, I responded on the other post, ironically before I read this one, and basically you've validated my stance: if you double the sear engagement surface on a 1911 hammer, and keep a modest take-up, I would have no problem carrying one "safety-less." I have not built a 1911 from scratch, but have reworked a few (4 IIRC), and the triggers were more akin to my Steyr SBS with its 2.8# trigger than a SIG DAK- no takeup and cruising at 4-5#.

    What is being ignored is the fact that people intentionally going in harms way have traditionally negated many safety features. The Phillipino hitman, referenced in an episode of Miami Vice, who carried a 1911 pinned and the thumb safety removed (TPI had a good vid clip of him actually shooting); the revolver featured in (IIRC) Handguns not too many years ago with the cut-away triggerguard, bobbed hammer worked action- it was based on a revo done for Applegait or Fairbairne, someone with better memory can source it, I'm sure.

    Bottom line: bad things happen to good & careful people in moments of carelessness. Period. End of story. It may be in a car, it may be with a double action revolver, etc., etc..

    They are dangerous- if we can't be conscious of handling to the degree the implement demands, we should not be handling it. Why do most hunting rifles come with 6-8# triggers? Yeah, most guys can't handle a "good trigger" safely in the field.

    True of high performance cars, too...
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  14. #58
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    I'm a little uncomfortable with the implications that stupidity is the cause of UDs. Stupid means unintelligent. Ignorance means lack of knowledge. There is a vast difference in the two meanings.

    Very intelligent people can do things out of ignorance - simply not knowing any better because they lack knowledge. While most of us on the board are quite knowledgeable about guns, that 'average' or casual gun owner is not and may need a bit more help.

    Here's what I'm talking about. After 9-11 many average people bought guns and probably haven't looked at them since. Then some one says you should inspect or clean the gun and so they pull out their Glock or XD to do that. They think they remember exactly how to do it but they can't get the slide to come off. Then they remember you have to pull the trigger. What happens? Well, if due to their ignorance (lack of knowledge) there was a round in the chamber, the gun fires.

    Let's do the same scenario with a Beretta, Sig, H&K, or 1911. They pull the slide off and discover the round in the chamber. They dump it out and think, "Wow, how'd that get in there!". But there's no UD.

    If I were recommending a gun to the average person, i.e. they want a handgun but after they shoot 10 rounds through it, that's the last they'll see it until they need it, I sure could not recommend a Glock, XD, or M&P.
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  15. #59
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    10-4!

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    If I were to being asked by an average person about what gun they should by I would first recommend a good gun course to teach the basics rather than saying you should buy....Its like teaching a 16 year old to drive a car, if they ask what car they should get you might give advise on what cars are good for their age, but knowing that they have never driven, maybe you would take them aside and show them the parts on your car, then show them the basics of how to drive it and show them that by knowing what they are getting into they can better prepare themselves for the accidents that may happen, and teach them how to avoid these situations if at all possible.

    Tons of people swear by revolvers, 1911s, Glocks and other makes, but the truth is crap happens. Only in safe handling and awareness can you truly protect yourself, and even Mr. Murphy may have something to say about that. Moral to the story, pick a firearm you are comfortable with, know the basics, follow the rules, and be aware of the good and the bad by not blinding yourself with the idea that "It can't happen to me..."

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