Glocks and XDs, external safety?

This is a discussion on Glocks and XDs, external safety? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; It should at least be a choice. It seems that every member of D.C. is proactive, and desires to be responsible and safe. For every ...

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  • No, I like them as they are and I'm safe following the 4 rules.

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  • What about revolvers?

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Thread: Glocks and XDs, external safety?

  1. #16
    Member Array Geo2020's Avatar
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    It should at least be a choice. It seems that every member of D.C. is proactive, and desires to be responsible and safe. For every D.C. member there are thousands of CCW holders that buy a Glock, get a permit, and don't have the slightest idea of the responsibility they have just strapped on.

    And It's not the complete dangerous goof-balls I'm talking about, it's the average Joe/Jane who gets a CCW because they like the idea of protecting themselves and their family, but don't see it as a lifestyle change.

    Some of you will say they shouldn’t get a firearm if they aren't willing to put in the effort to be knowledgeable, and that maybe true..... but it doesn't make it so.

    The sheer number of threads regarding unsafe handing in gun shops/ranges is a testament to the sheer number of unsafe handlers out there.

    I would rather they have every possible mechanical advantage to overcome their lack of training, rather than stand on a soap box shouting they should pay more attention to the 4 rules. (getting off my soap box now hehe)

    With all that said, I prefer a manual safety. Not as a crutch, but as an additional layer of safety for those around me.

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    So then, do we really need a thumb safety on a 1911?
    I thought we were talking about striker fired pistols.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #18
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    SIXTO,

    We were talking about a Glocks and XDs. This seems to be a prevailing attitude toward Glocks and XDs: "I think the external manual safety breeds reliance on a mechanical device instead of proper pistol craft."

    And at the same time we commonly accept the thumb safety on a 1911 as a necessary safety device. It seems to be a double standard.

    Just like Sojourner said, "The glock has 3 safeties as it it. another one is going to do nothing but possibly give me a (2) error. And the time I would spend in training myself to "snick" or "sweep" off the safety is time I could be using training myself in a simpler gun without a manual safety."

    What's the fallacy here? The Glock has three safeties to prevent a drop discharge and that's all. All the safeties are automatically disengaged when the trigger is pulled. That little flapper thingy in the trigger that gets touted as a trigger safety etc. -it isn't - it's simply a part of the drop safety. There is absolutely nothing to keep a Glock from firing if pressure is applied to the trigger.

    Of course, that's not true for the XD because it also has a grip safety that has to be depressed and the XD also has a longer, heavier trigger pull than a Glock.

    Don't read this wrong guys, I have more Glocks than any other brand of gun. But I constantly see statements made about how safe a Glock is due to those three safeties, and that revolver-like trigger. A Glock's trigger is nothing like a revolver trigger. A revolver has both a longer, and heavier trigger pull.

    In a phone conversation with Ernst Langdon, he said some studies have shown that the length of pull is more significant than the weight of the trigger for preventing UDs.

    But if we're gonna say that an external safety may cause more problems that it solves, how do we apply that to a 1911. How many of us think that a 1911 should not have a thumb safety because it may not get swiped off in that life or death moment?
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    How many of us think that a 1911 should not have a thumb safety because it may not get swiped off in that life or death moment?
    Me. Hence, no 1911.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #20
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    But if we're gonna say that an external safety may cause more problems that it solves, how do we apply that to a 1911. How many of us think that a 1911 should not have a thumb safety because it may not get swiped off in that life or death moment?
    Well said, Tangle. You rarely hear anyone bemoaning the external safety on the M16/AR family of rifles and carbines, yet they work the same, down/off, up/on.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  7. #21
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    OD - the difference between rifle safeties and pistol safeties has been discussed many times. There are many valid reasons why external safeties on a rifle (especially a military rifle) are a good idea, and none of these reasons translate to the pistol.

    But, again, this is about Glocks and XDs, not 1911s and (certainly) not M16s....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #22
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    OD - the difference between rifle safeties and pistol safeties has been discussed many times.
    Would you direct me to those threads please? I can't see the difference, it's easier for me to disengage/engage the 1911s safety (especially shooting high thumb) than it is for me the M16/AR.
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  9. #23
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    Mine has a safty I keep my booger picker off the trigger.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    Would you direct me to those threads please? I can't see the difference, it's easier for me to disengage/engage the 1911s safety (especially shooting high thumb) than it is for me the M16/AR.
    I'll hit the salient points - though we both know you already know them.

    The trigger pull on rifles is less than on almost all DA, striker fired, or DAO pistols. If the trigger on my Sig broke like the trigger on my Rem 700, I might want a safety on the Sig, too.

    The trigger on a rifle is, in its natural carry position, exposed to the world - the trigger on a pistol is most often encased in a holster or other device. If I wore a Glock on a strap around my neck while tromping through the woods, I might want a safety on the Glock.

    A rifle is designed to be carried in the hands when in use, making it easier to have your fingers "pre-positioned" to disengage the safety. The pistol, of course, is designed to be carried in a holster, requiring one to first grasp the weapon, and then manipulate it as necessary in order to put it into operation.

    And so on and so on...and you know all this.

    OD, I have to ask - are you just yanking my chain and taking up a contrary (and totally off-topic) position just because I don't think the 1911 is the best pistol for every single person under every single circumstance?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    Would you direct me to those threads please? I can't see the difference, it's easier for me to disengage/engage the 1911s safety (especially shooting high thumb) than it is for me the M16/AR.
    But not easier to disengage than the safety on my Steyr .308. I suspect my Steyr's trigger is lighter than your 1911, as well. And bolt action is the only valid comparison here- the 1911 does not have 5/8" of takeup followed by a distinct 2 stage trigger as the AR/M16 does.

    Tangle- spot on. With slightly longer take-up, and increasing the sear engagement to say .035-.040" on a 1911- I would have no problem with a pinned grip safety and no thumb safety. Realistically, this is exactly what Glock has, but in a slightly different mechanism.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by f8lranger4x4 View Post
    Mine has a safty I keep my booger picker off the trigger.
    No offense intended at all, but would you apply that same logic to a 1911 or M16? I'm simply wondering why we accept safeties on some guns and not others. If our booger picker is sufficient, is it not sufficient on all guns?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And, guys, I’m not campaigning that Glocks and XDs should have thumb safeties or that 1911s should not. But, for those that would prefer an external safety or have installed external safeties, I see nothing wrong with doing that or the logic of doing that, and I might add, neither does Glock, since they state that the addition of the thumb safety will not void the warranty.

    All I'm trying to say is that the perception that a Glock is as safe without an external safety as a 1911 is with a safety may not be entirely justified.

    Also, I believe the perception that is commonly stated about people that have UDs are dummies is inaccurate. Do not intelligent people have UDs? I know of a seasoned trainer that accidentally shot a trainee. Other seasoned trainers have had UDs. Then, on GT, there were reports of four UDs occurring while drawing Glocks from Blackhawk holsters. At least two of these occurred with competent, long-time trainers.

    While the thread is about Glocks and XDs, it is both frequent, common, and profitable to compare one gun type to another as we discuss salient features/issues.

    As I stated in another thread, the functional difference between a Glock trigger and a 1911/BHP trigger is a matter of small degrees, not night and day. For example, after take up, the 1911 trigger only requires about a 1/16" of travel at a weight of about 5 lbs – A BHP is a bit heavier. A Glock trigger only requires a travel of a little over 1/8" at a pull weight of about 5 lbs. That doesn't mean the triggers are equal by any means; it simply means that it takes very close to the same effort to fire either.

    The XDs are a bit different because the trigger pull is longer and heavier and of lesser significance it has a grip safety.
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    Well said, Tangle. You rarely hear anyone bemoaning the external safety on the M16/AR family of rifles and carbines, yet they work the same, down/off, up/on.
    Its apples and oranges though. They are two very different tools.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Just like Sojourner said, "The glock has 3 safeties as it it. another one is going to do nothing but possibly give me a (2) error. And the time I would spend in training myself to "snick" or "sweep" off the safety is time I could be using training myself in a simpler gun without a manual safety."

    What's the fallacy here? The Glock has three safeties to prevent a drop discharge and that's all. All the safeties are automatically disengaged when the trigger is pulled. That little flapper thingy in the trigger that gets touted as a trigger safety etc. -it isn't - it's simply a part of the drop safety. There is absolutely nothing to keep a Glock from firing if pressure is applied to the trigger.

    Of course, that's not true for the XD because it also has a grip safety that has to be depressed and the XD also has a longer, heavier trigger pull than a Glock.
    Good points. I wasn't trying to imply that the glock safeties would help against bad gun handling. Hope I did not come off that way.

    When going striker fired, I do like the idea of a grip safety, solely for the purpose of not having an ND when reholstering. That grip safety is not manually actuated, which I like.

    The glock did win out for me against the XD for other reasons. However, I am very careful while re-holstering.

    Other pistols that I like. The H&K with the LEM trigger (long take up and external bobbed hammer for re-holstering). and the H&K squeeze-cocker pistol.

    For me, I do not like manually activated safeties on my short guns. I won't push that on others, just share my reasoning why I don't like manually operated safeties.

    regards.

  15. #29
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    OPFOR,

    It is not complete to state that a rifle is made to carry in the hands and a handgun in a holster. Handguns must often be carried in the hands under extremely stressful conditions.

    It is well documented that fingers migrate to the trigger under conditions of high stress. It is very reasonable to say that under those conditions that enough pressure will be applied to the trigger to take the slack, or take up, out of the trigger. The conditions would be perfect for a UD.

    Comparing that to say a Beretta DA/SA, the trigger pull is so long and heavy that it is far, far more resistant to a UD under stress than a gun with a shorter, lighter trigger pull. Most DAO autos are hovering around the 6.5 lb pull mark with a fairly long pull stoke.

    One exception is the H&K LEM trigger. This configuration has quite a bit of take up, but it ends up at the break point in almost a motion free, pressure break. Even though the break weight is much higher than a Glock, it takes almost no motion to break the shot, just pressure. I think that's not good.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    OD, I have to ask - are you just yanking my chain and taking up a contrary (and totally off-topic) position just because I don't think the 1911 is the best pistol for every single person under every single circumstance?
    Show me ONE post of mine where I EVER made that statement.
    It was a legitimate question and statement of fact for me.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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