Glocks and XDs, external safety? - Page 3

Glocks and XDs, external safety?

This is a discussion on Glocks and XDs, external safety? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by sojourner Good points. I wasn't trying to imply that the glock safeties would help against bad gun handling. Hope I did not ...

View Poll Results: Should striker fired pistols without safeties have them?

Voters
108. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, this is an unsafe design.

    11 10.19%
  • No, I like them as they are and I'm safe following the 4 rules.

    85 78.70%
  • What about revolvers?

    11 10.19%
  • Never had a striker fired pistol, likely never will, so I don't care.

    8 7.41%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 58

Thread: Glocks and XDs, external safety?

  1. #31
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,907
    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    Good points. I wasn't trying to imply that the glock safeties would help against bad gun handling. Hope I did not come off that way.

    When going striker fired, I do like the idea of a grip safety, solely for the purpose of not having an ND when reholstering. That grip safety is not manually actuated, which I like.

    The glock did win out for me against the XD for other reasons. However, I am very careful while re-holstering.

    Other pistols that I like. The H&K with the LEM trigger (long take up and external bobbed hammer for re-holstering). and the H&K squeeze-cocker pistol.

    For me, I do not like manually activated safeties on my short guns. I won't push that on others, just share my reasoning why I don't like manually operated safeties.

    regards.
    Hey, I'm in agreement all the way! And I did misread your meaning about the safeties. You've pretty much nailed it, holster a Glock with more care and attention. If it's dark, use even more precaution.

    Like you, I personally don't want a safety to manipulate on the draw stroke. Not because I fear I'll miss it, but because I have to modify my grip at the holster to ready my thumb to operate the safety, hence it is measurably slower for me, but not by much.

    For me personally, after years of vacillation, my preference is a DA/SA trigger. My first pick would be a 92FS if it weren't so long. Right now my pick is the Beretta PX4 9mm. The longer, heavier trigger pull is sufficently resistant to UDs. I have times around the house that I place my handgun in the chair beside me to avoid a belt and holster. The PX4 serves well here, long, heavier trigger with exposed hammer that you can readily detect if it's moving, and a safety on top of that. I just can't bring myself to deploy a Glock or M&P in that manner.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!


  2. #32
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,907
    OPFOR,

    OD's request seems reasonable, I didn't get the impression it was a challenge or anything.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We have some differing opinions and we may see that each has some very valid points. I would hope what would come from such discussions as this is to separate truth from misperception. And, I'm not judging which is which, but there is something to be gained by discovering things that have been bantered about as truths, but when we look at them honestly we gain a different and better perspective.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  3. #33
    Member Array Catalina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lake Erie Shore
    Posts
    372
    That little flapper thingy in the trigger that gets touted as a trigger safety etc. -it isn't - it's simply a part of the drop safety. There is absolutely nothing to keep a Glock from firing if pressure is applied to the trigger.
    One of the all time great oxymorons - "the "trigger safety".

    It's like calling the gas pedal the brakes.

    Yes I own and enjoy striker fired arms. But "trigger safety" is ad copy.

    Get ready to laugh:
    The trigger safety is a small button on the face of the trigger which keeps the trigger from moving backwards (and thus firing the weapon) unless pressed straight back during a normal pull. This helps keep the trigger from moving backwards when dropped or if something gets in the trigger guard.


    Go Glock - until you can afford H&K

  4. #34
    VIP Member
    Array OPFOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Nomad
    Posts
    4,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    OPFOR,

    OD's request seems reasonable, I didn't get the impression it was a challenge or anything.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We have some differing opinions and we may see that each has some very valid points. I would hope what would come from such discussions as this is to separate truth from misperception. And, I'm not judging which is which, but there is something to be gained by discovering things that have been bantered about as truths, but when we look at them honestly we gain a different and better perspective.
    Perhaps I took ODs comments wrong – in my experience he is a very knowledgeable and respected contributor, and I took it for granted that he would understand that there are differences between rifles and pistols that might necessitate different safety devices. Assuming that, it seemed that he was simply having me on... If that’s not the case, then I apologize. (And, OD, you’ve never expressly said that about the 1911, but I think you can admit that you are a strong proponent of the JMB design, to the point of taking umbrage if anyone suggests that it is not the perfect pistol for all applications – i.e. saying that I don’t think the 1911 fits my needs simply because I’m not trained well enough on it…)

    As to pistols being held in the hand under stress – this is certainly true. If the finger migrates to the trigger under stress, then no amount of safeties is going to help – we want the gun to fire when we pull the trigger, right? I read one (very limited) study that went something like this: People of various training levels and experience were put in a (simulated) situation that could very likely have ended in armed conflict. The “subjects” were armed with a DA revolver with a very long, heavy trigger pull. During the actual situation, no deadly threat materialized, and there was no reason for the subjects to shoot. Near the end of the scenario, however, the subjects were surprised by a hand reaching out and grabbing their ankle. In almost every case, if the person had their finger on the trigger, they fired a “round.” The long, heavy trigger was no impediment to this type of ND. The subjects with better training, however, who kept their fingers off of the triggers, had no NDs.

    All that being said – if someone wants an external safety on their Glock/XD because it fits their perceived needs, then good for them. I don’t believe that an external safety is necessary on any handgun that doesn’t have a “hair trigger,” but I don’t begrudge those that want/like them. Care in handling the firearm is, as always, paramount.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #35
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,907
    I agree OPFOR. However, UDs were almost unheard of when revolvers ruled.

    Some other studies have indicated that there is an added measure of resistance to UDs with longer, heavier triggers. I have read of some studies that purportedly proved one thing or another, but were actually designed either poorly or with an agenda.

    In one 'study' I recall, they subjected the person to repeated threats in fast paced scenarios. Then they 'sneaked' in a 'no-shoot' and almost invariably the no-shoot got shot. This was used as evidence that trigger type didn't matter. But what it really proved was that a person pre-conditioned would intentionally pull the trigger.

    According to Ernst Langdon, LEO departments that issue DA/SA or DAO guns, UDs rarely occur. LEOs that use shorter, lighter triggers experience far more UDs.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  6. #36
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,907
    Quote Originally Posted by Catalina View Post
    One of the all time great oxymorons - "the "trigger safety".

    It's like calling the gas pedal the brakes.

    Yes I own and enjoy striker fired arms. But "trigger safety" is ad copy.
    So true! It seems almost irresponsible to even promote the drop safety as a 'trigger safety' - oxymoron - very appropriate!

    Let me add that I enjoy striker fired guns too - Glock, M&P, and XDs.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  7. #37
    VIP Member
    Array OPFOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Nomad
    Posts
    4,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I agree OPFOR. However, UDs were almost unheard of when revolvers ruled.

    Some other studies have indicated that there is an added measure of resistance to UDs with longer, heavier triggers. I have read of some studies that purportedly proved one thing or another, but were actually designed either poorly or with an agenda.

    In one 'study' I recall, they subjected the person to repeated threats in fast paced scenarios. Then they 'sneaked' in a 'no-shoot' and almost invariably the no-shoot got shot. This was used as evidence that trigger type didn't matter. But what it really proved was that a person pre-conditioned would intentionally pull the trigger.

    According to Ernst Langdon, LEO departments that issue DA/SA or DAO guns, UDs rarely occur. LEOs that use shorter, lighter triggers experience far more UDs.
    Can't argue with that. Although I will say that I've seen several NDs with the M9 in the military, despite the long heavy pull and the manual safety/decocker. The fact is that these troops intentionally pull the trigger on a loaded weapon, out of ignorance, negligence, complacency, or whatever. They take off the manual safety, fully engage that looooooong pull, and: BANG. You can't overcome stupidity, ignorance, or negligence through mechanical means... That's not to say that there might be more NDs in the military if we used a weapon with a lighter trigger pull, just that it is actions that are safe or unsafe, and the tool (by and large) is of little consequence.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #38
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,907
    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Can't argue with that. Although I will say that I've seen several NDs with the M9 in the military, despite the long heavy pull and the manual safety/decocker. The fact is that these troops intentionally pull the trigger on a loaded weapon, out of ignorance, negligence, complacency, or whatever. They take off the manual safety, fully engage that looooooong pull, and: BANG. You can't overcome stupidity, ignorance, or negligence through mechanical means... That's not to say that there might be more NDs in the military if we used a weapon with a lighter trigger pull, just that it is actions that are safe or unsafe, and the tool (by and large) is of little consequence.
    I agree wholeheartedly. Well with the exception to stupidity. This type of incidents can be attributed to ignorance, meaning lack of knowledge, but not necessarily to stupidity. Stupidity implies a low intelligence level. But very intelligent people can be ignorant, i.e. lacking in knowledge or application in certain areas.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  9. #39
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,803
    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post

    If that’s not the case, then I apologize. .
    Apology accepted.

    (And, OD, you’ve never expressly said that about the 1911, but I think you can admit that you are a strong proponent of the JMB design, .
    Indeed and I have never denied it, but I have NEVER pushed anyone towards the platform, nor have I ever belittled anyone for not feeling the same.

    to the point of taking umbrage if anyone suggests that it is not the perfect pistol for all applications – i.e. saying that I don’t think the 1911 fits my needs simply because I’m not trained well enough on it…).
    No Sir, that is not the case. I don't care what someone else's opinion is of the 1911 platform, they are not for everyone and there are many great pistols on the market. I do not take umbrage with your lack of familiarity with the 1911, I do think you should have much more knowledge of the platform before you come to any firm opinions on it.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    OBX, NC
    Posts
    2,655

    Never had a striker fired pistol, likely never will, so I don't care.

    However, it isn't unsafe on any striker-fired pistol that I know of.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    2,621
    I think manual safeties are far more dangerous than good. I believe it was Colonel Applegate that advocated removing manual safeties from those weapons that come with them. Is it on? Is it off? Are you sure? Willing to bet your child's life on it? I voted no and what about revolvers. I love the intuitive safeties on my XD. Grab it point it shoot it but will not fire if I do not have a firing grip and pull the trigger. How much better can it get?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Amarillo, Texas
    Posts
    835
    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post
    NO

    Glock’s are the safest firearms available. But, I am sure I’ll get some arguments regarding that.
    The reason that they are the safest is because they are inherently unsafe, and Glock owners know it. Therefore, your quote might be better stated:

    "Glock shooters are the safest shooters available."

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Amarillo, Texas
    Posts
    835
    My opinion:

    If I were a law officer carrying in an open side holster, there is nothing better than a Glock.

    To carry concealed means having to deal with clothing that is required to maintain concealment. The chances of snagging or having an accidental discharge is enhanced. Therefore, for carrying concealed, I will choose the XD any day. For an accidental discharge to occur with an XD while drawing from among clothing, forces must be exerted in "opposite" directions on the trigger and the grip safety. That is not to say that an accidental discharge could never occur, but the chances are diminished.
    Last edited by cwblanco; November 16th, 2007 at 07:06 PM.

  14. #44
    Member Array Footslogger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    437
    I know I'm jumping in this thread late, and I apologize for that. But IMO a Glock is no safer than any other DAO pistol. It's the DA that makes it safe- the rest is marketing fluff.

    I believe 1911's should have thumb safeties because they are SAO, and with that hammer pulled back, heck yeah I want a thumb safety engaged.
    Dave

    "When among wild beasts, if they menace you, be a wild beast."
    -Herman Melville

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,134
    Imho each action type can be " sold " as safe no matter the choice . Ill note tho that Al Bell who i traind with , and was so instrimental for the DC police going glock went to work for glock stated that it is an officer training issue since ad and officer injury incidents went up when they went from s$w k frames to glocks . IMHO striker fired guns are no more " unsafe " than any other , however they are unforgiving which is funny when you consider the 1911 is widlely considered unsuitable for LE due to the single action , cocked appearance of them .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. External safety: What is your preference?
    By CDRGlock in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: May 25th, 2010, 11:34 PM
  2. Glocks and Safety
    By crue2009 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: August 23rd, 2009, 11:18 PM
  3. Firearms without External Safety, etc.
    By preachertim in forum Basic Gun Handling & Safety
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: March 11th, 2009, 10:26 AM
  4. Glocks, Safety, & How to Carry
    By advantage1one in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: February 22nd, 2009, 04:25 PM
  5. External Safety
    By Geo2020 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: July 27th, 2006, 01:45 AM

Search tags for this page

are striker fire pistols safe with out thumb safety
,
does the xds have a external safety
,
external safety for xds after market
,
glock external safety
,
pistol without external safety
,
safety for xds
,
safety on xds
,
xds external safety
,
xds mechanical safety?
,
xds pistol
,

xds safety

,
xds safety striker
Click on a term to search for related topics.