So I'm doing some research on shotgun wounds... - Page 2

So I'm doing some research on shotgun wounds...

This is a discussion on So I'm doing some research on shotgun wounds... within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; For years I've been sold on #4 for home defense and then readily available slugs if needed....

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  1. #16
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    For years I've been sold on #4 for home defense and then readily available slugs if needed.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    For years I've been sold on #4 for home defense and then readily available slugs if needed.
    QK, according to the article I read provided by one of the forum members, #4 will make literal mush of your innards for a few inches. However, according to them, #1 is needed for six inch penetration to hopefully reach a vital organ. And yes, only Hollywood provides blow back stopping power. Everything I have read since being a newbie last January says more lead downrange, regardless of size, to reach a vital organ. Stopping power is a myth.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by aznav View Post
    QK, according to the article I read provided by one of the forum members, #4 will make literal mush of your innards for a few inches. However, according to them, #1 is needed for six inch penetration to hopefully reach a vital organ. And yes, only Hollywood provides blow back stopping power. Everything I have read since being a newbie last January says more lead downrange, regardless of size, to reach a vital organ. Stopping power is a myth.
    Stopping power is not so much a myth but those that tout stopping power need to look at the two things that develop. One being a physiological reaction and the other being a psychological reaction. The only guarantee is destroying the central nervous system everything else is speculation.

    For example a person without the mindset to do real damage and has perceived that when shot is supposed to lay down and expire may do so by being shot in the forearm with a 22 caliber bullet.

    On the other hand a person with a committed mindset to fight having been shot in chest (center mass), in reasonably good physical condition and doesn't really care if he has been shot may very well continue to fight until the brain runs out of oxygen and goes to sleep.

    Example in case, the guy in my story above, he had the physical ability and mindset to run, on the other hand what damage could he have done should he have decided to close that 6 feet and use the 10" blade he had in his hand (for the same time period it took him to run two short flights of stairs). He was shot center mass with 15 pellet of 00 buck at 6 feet. The outcome may have had a lot different ending. The shooter admitted that he had not known if the shot load had hit his target at that point, because the results were not what he had expected. (You know a shotgun blast at 6 feet was supposed to flip the guy, turn the sky dark, and the bad guy go away in a shower of sparks and a puff of smoke).
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    A great reason to have more than one shell loaded... even if it is 00. Maybe also a good reason to make that HD shottie a semi instead of a pump.

    If at first you don't succeed, pull it again.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

    -- Theodore Roosevelt --

  5. #20
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    Well it was loaded with more, the first two rounds were 00 buck followed by slugs. Then it comes down to training, the next load of 00 buck missed and exited a foyer window, the 3rd was an negligent discharge sending the slug into the interior wall and exiting the exterior of the house (don't know where it went).

    The Home Owner (HO) doesn't remember if the 2nd shot was intentional or negligent, the 3rd (slug) was definitely negligent and was fired during a butt stroke to the forehead.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    Please post back since I might have to rethink my 2 3/4 inch #4 shot loads for the home.
    Les Baer 45
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    I am involved with a case now and when it is over I will post a few pics if everyone wants. Guy was shot at a distance of 6 feet, 3" magnum 12 gauge 00 Buck. What do you think exited the body? he was shot from a angle in the upper left chest angled toward the right arm pit.
    You maybe surprised.
    So what exited the body?
    I've investigated several shotgun shootings myself involving shot size from #6 to slugs, including 0 and 00. Did a couple cases where 7-1/2 was used but those weren't fatal. Distances were pretty far even if the people were hunting rabbits. The only thing I've seen exit a solid torso hit was the slugs.
    The OP is talking about using #4 and then #1 for followup. Not a whole lot of difference at typical home distances.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    So what exited the body?
    I've investigated several shotgun shootings myself involving shot size from #6 to slugs, including 0 and 00. Did a couple cases where 7-1/2 was used but those weren't fatal. Distances were pretty far even if the people were hunting rabbits. The only thing I've seen exit a solid torso hit was the slugs.
    The OP is talking about using #4 and then #1 for followup. Not a whole lot of difference at typical home distances.
    How ever the load entered just below center of the left pec going angular toward the right, exiting under the arm pit and into the right bicep. 5 pellets exited the exterior of the bicep into a heavy sweat shirt, one pellet fell onto the floor, two were hung in the sweat shirt and two went into the sheet rock wall. Exit wounds were all individual 31. cal holes (slightly less). No internal organs were out of the body, there was a large entry wound about 1 1/2 inches in diameter. Just to dis spell a myth shotguns even at that range and such a good hit, does not throw people through the air and drop them in their tracks. The guy managed to run up two short flights of stairs, stand in a door way for a undisclosed amount of time before collapsing and eventually expiring.
    Like I say, let me get through court and I will add more.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    Well it was loaded with more, the first two rounds were 00 buck followed by slugs. Then it comes down to training, the next load of 00 buck missed and exited a foyer window, the 3rd was an negligent discharge sending the slug into the interior wall and exiting the exterior of the house (don't know where it went).

    The Home Owner (HO) doesn't remember if the 2nd shot was intentional or negligent, the 3rd (slug) was definitely negligent and was fired during a butt stroke to the forehead.

    Man! Talk about a bad day!!!

  10. #25
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    A shotgun is a devastating firearm at typical home defense ranges. I have my 870 loaded with 2 3/4" buckshot shells, and I am confident it will give an intruder a very bad day. I also have 2 3/4" 1 oz slugs ready to go on a side saddle.
    USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    So what exited the body?
    I've investigated several shotgun shootings myself involving shot size from #6 to slugs, including 0 and 00. Did a couple cases where 7-1/2 was used but those weren't fatal. Distances were pretty far even if the people were hunting rabbits. The only thing I've seen exit a solid torso hit was the slugs.
    The OP is talking about using #4 and then #1 for followup. Not a whole lot of difference at typical home distances.

    I did see one complete body penetration at a suicide attempt, and that was a chest contact wound with a 3" .410, no less. All the shot plus the plastic wad made a complete pass thru...surprisingly the victim missed all vitals and recovered completely.

    Buckshot is problematic as the devil in terms of penetration. I investigated a homicide performed by a crackhead involving a contact shot just below the sternum with a sawn off .12 (about a 12 inch tube) using 00. The victim was a slightly built female and the wound was angled slightly upward...maybe 10 degrees....I was amazed to find that not a SINGLE one of those pellets completely penetrated her body. Virtually all were clustered under the skin of her back.....Needless to say, she was dead before she hit the floor.

    I have also seen many deer killed with buckshot and I have yet to note a complete bodily penetration....plus blood trails are absolutely minimal.

    Buck will work, but in my experience if you are seeking instant incapacitation its a sometimes thing.

  12. #27
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    Fantastic real world info. This certainly does away with a ton of myths that I've heard.
    Les Baer 45
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  13. #28
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    hmm...perhaps we could have the "hollywood effect"...Punt gun anyone?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Vt0mr2sjE

    Take notice...the board holding the clays DID fly back a few feet. One could I guess clear the home in two man teams(one to hold the barrel up and the other to fire)?
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  14. #29
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    We had a gunfight (NYPD) after many handgun rounds were fired an ESU (SWAT) officer shot the guy with 12 ga slug. He went down and got back up. The second shot put the guy down. If I remember correctly the 1st shot traversed the body and the slug was recovered in the clothing. I train and have trained to shoot until the threat stops. IMO use a gun that you can shoot fast and accurately- I have used 12ga at work but I perfer a 20ga and for some people a carbine (whatever caliber) may be a better choice

  15. #30
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    was a large entry wound about 1 1/2 inches in diameter
    Yup, can name that tune for sure.
    The very first shooting I was sent to involved a guy getting hit at approx 15 ft with a 20 ga #6 shot. Entry wound was about the size of a golf ball and just a tad ragged around the edges but just 1 hole. Hit him right in the xyfoid. Found some of the pellets up against the spine but none completely penetrated. He dropped where he stood. That kind of "pattern" is why I say at normal home range the size of shot from #4 or #1 isn't going to matter. It's going to be pretty much en-mass type entry at distances encountered in most homes. Now if you are Donald Trump or the Queen of England and your dining room was 150 ft long patterning would be a different issue. So far that hasn't been a concern of mine and since I don't have any rich uncles not likely to be a concern for me in the future.
    Did another shooting where a guy took a load of 00 from about 30+ yds. That one ended up being a real screwy situation. A guy didn't like his son in law. Daughter moved back home. Guy told the SIL to leave his daughter alone and that she wasn't moving back in with the SIL. Both the guy and the SIL later admitted no threats of physical harm were ever spoken by either side. The guy called the local COP in the real Podunk town and told the COP that he didn't want the SIL coming around. COP gives the guy the PD's shotgun and tells the guy to protect himself if the SIL comes around. SIL stops by the guy's house to see his wife (guy's daughter). When the SIL steps out of his car the guy fires 2 rds of 00 at the SIL. One hits the car and the 2nd one hits the SIL. Most of the pellets hit the lower torso and legs. The only pellets that completely penetrated weren't solid hits in meat. SIL lived but we weren't sure for a while if he was going to make it. The village of Podunk paid out for that one and is probably still paying out for it. The COP is still COP.
    Did an investigation where the BG took a 12 foster slug sideways from about 30 ft. Slug hit him in the upper left arm hitting the bone and nearly severing the arm. Slug entered the chest cavity taking out a rib. Went thru both lungs and clipped the top of the heart and cutting the aorta. Slug exited the opposite side of the chest taking out another rib. Then it hit the right bicept muscle pretty much completely removing the muscle from the arm. Where that slug ended up we'll never know. It just kept on going. Guy dropped right where he stood. At autosy inside his upper chest looked like it had been run thru a blender.
    As far as deer we don't/can't use buckshot for deer in IL. Slugs only. They'll definitely do the trick.

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