Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue! - Page 2

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue!

This is a discussion on Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue! within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I was on SW forum the day/evening he first started his now infamous thread. It ran for a short time with nothing but accolades and ...

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Thread: Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue!

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I was on SW forum the day/evening he first started his now infamous thread.
    It ran for a short time with nothing but accolades and folks politely asking for additional personal experience information.
    Then as happens on the internet when a person gets a degree of spotlight, crows swooped in and things got ugly...real quick.

    A long story short the gentleman tried to answer the critical statements of the haters...err I mean crows but things devolved to a point where he was battling more with haters than offering information. In the end he formally stated he had not more time or interest in continuing and he stopped updating his thread.
    I used to have the thread bookmarked as I'd check it daily for updates. I'll have to poke around and see if I can locate it.

    Anyway much of his statements ran square with what I've independently understood from my own reading and research. I personally thought he was for the most part on the up and up inclusive of a few errors and gaffes that well are human and would/could happen to any person posting about any given subject.
    BTW Elcrusr is dead on. He was not an actual coroner but reviewer as he'd indicated, a high level manager of sorts who worked not just in one region but across various regions. True or not who knows.

    Anyway like most stuff on the internet take it, and my words above, with a grain of salt.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #17
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    It's good to remember though that any bullet that deflects off bone can hit a vital organ as well as miss one. So not all bullets that deflect are worthless.

    Yes, and that's true that a bullet that slams into the heart does not need to pulverize it. It only needs to hit it. Neither will necessarily be an instantly incapacitating shot though.
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  3. #18
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    sounds like a missed opportunity. the guy had the volume (assuming he's real) to gather some nice data scientifically. but, he didn't. he just formed opinions...which is probably good enough for him. but, not good enough for me.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Phaed,

    What you just said is basically how things began to devolve as to folks questioning his nfo.
    Not a bad or unreasonable question. The problem was the method and tone that folks in that thread took toward stating as much. At onepoint he explained that due to the number of cases he reviews it would not be possible for him to database the information and document them without that in and of it self becoming a full time job. :/

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Interesting read, but I find it less than credible. Too many contradictions for me. If I had a chance to meet the author perhaps he could explain them, but for now I will just smile and nod.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  6. #21
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    sounds like a missed opportunity. the guy had the volume (assuming he's real) to gather some nice data scientifically. but, he didn't. he just formed opinions...which is probably good enough for him. but, not good enough for me.
    Its good enough for me.

    If everything is on the up and up, which it appears to be, his opinions of what he sees everyday are generally worth more to me than say someone that never in any way deals with gun shot victims.

    I mean really, if you wanted to know about Nuclear Radiation are you going to ask an Auto Mechanic or someone that works in the Nuclear Radiation field everyday? I'd take the opinion of the guy that does it for a living.

    As for the missed opportunity, that along would be a full time job. I figure that one FT job a day is enough.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  7. #22
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    Iíve been reading a lot on calibers, ammunition, bullets etc. And I have to say, I think its mostly porn for gun loversÖ

    I have had the unfortunate experience of being in combat, and the issued sidearm for us was a 9mm. I have also had to use it twice, and it did the intended job both times without fail, or without complaining about its feelings of inadequacy compared to be bigger guns that was all around it at the time. In fact, all it said was BangÖ

    The first time I was being charged by a man wielding a very large knife. I hit him three times in the chest / torso. From 10, 7 and 5 yards.
    The shots did not kill him, they didnít hit anything vital, they didnít break any bones.. he lived and is for all I know still alive. He did however stop the attack IMMEDIATELY on impact. He went down like a ton of bricks and was not about to do anything until he had an extended vacation.

    The second was a much quicker proposition where I hit the target right in the CPU and took him offline immediately. Let it be known that I was issued full metal jacketed round-nosed bullets without any bells, whistles or heat-seeking super shock turbo ammunition.

    This being said, I carry the .45 as a personal preference. Why? Because I like the way it shoots and more importantly, I wanted to compete in the single stack .45 classes. And since I am competing with and thereby shooting that caliber the most. It makes most sense for me to use it as a defense sidearm. I carry it because I practice with it. Not because I think itís a superior caliber.

    The trick is not to hit the perpetrator with a big bullet as much as it is to just hit him. Iíd take a hit with a slingshot over a miss with a cannon any day (ask Goliath)

    My advice is to carry what you like and what you practice with. If you are low on money, carry a .22. At least then you can afford to practice. If you canít afford to practice, donít carry.

    just my 2c

  8. #23
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    I think you are right on with the porn for gun lovers comment. It's been a while but I belive that one study said that the most common fatal caliber for LEO in Californicate was the .25 ACP. Since this was the most common caliber for BG's is would not be sruprising. I read this fellow's posts a while back and as several have posted his conclusions are more his opinion than actual factual study but I saw nothing wrong with the conclusions he drew and the way he stated them. It is sad that so many people have been killed with every caliber bullet out there but is a fact of life. But I think it is even sadder that so many spend so much time arguing over which caliber will kill the quickest so they can know which one to carry. I sometimes think it would be nice if all guns could be banned from the face of the earth but then people would just start throwing rocks like they did before guns.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Scot Van's Avatar
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    Spectacularly educational read! Thanks!

    This is why I reserve the 9mm for the range and won't carry anything smaller than .40

    My mentors have instilled a deep respect for accuracy, stating that one accurately placed 9mm round is far more effective than multiple misses with a larger caliber. Good point, but it you can hit with both, why not use a larger round?

    This is also why I support the idea that, in HD situations, your handgun is there to get you to your AR or your shotgun.
    A man in the hands of his enemies is flesh, and shudderingly vulnerable. - author unknown

  10. #25
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    The author sounds credible to me, but as he says repeatedly, it is often hard for them to determine the bullet type or even the calibre of a lot of the autopsies. He also said most are BG vs BG, which probably means poor shot placement with cheap bullets. BG's most often carry 9mm. CHL's and LEO's are more likely to have a .45, which means they are probably using better ammo and have practiced more often. That being said, his article, while a good, if long read, simply does not have nearly enough information to form any kind of opinion based on his 'observations'. I don't feel under powered with my XD9 and I don't think I will rush out and buy a .45 based on his article.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  11. #26
    Member Array garn's Avatar
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    The main problem, other than the fact that there is no scientific process or data, atleast for comparing the 9mm to .40 and .45, is that there are a wide range of 9mm rounds. I have seen muzzle energy ratings as low as 300 ft. lbs. to as high as just over 500 ft. lbs.

    If his assumption that mostly "gangbangers" use 9mm handguns, because of their smaller size and availability/cost, then i bet it would also be true that such gangbangers would use the cheapest ammo they could get their hands on, aka, low power 9mm rounds. That would put the performance of the round very low, as apposed to the performance of the many types of high power +p self defense rounds that are virtually matching the performance of .45 in terms of muzzle energy.

    If thats the case, his entire argument, atleast the one concerning 9mm rounds, is completely FLAWED.

    Just an observation using his method for reaching conclusion!
    Obama didn't get elected to warranty your muffler. He's here to warranty your life.

  12. #27
    Member Array Erich's Avatar
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    As many of you know I've worked in some capacity (private investigator, ADA, defense counsel) on almost 200 handgun killings over the years. I've read an awful lot of OMI reports about how the bullets performed, and an awful lot of police reports about what happened right after the shootings.

    What I've seen is that you need 1) shot placement and 2) adequate penetration to stop someone from aggressive behavior. A lot of people die after being shot in the liver or lungs, but those shots don't necessarily stop them. When people are shot in the heart/aorta, spine (finally saw a spinal shooting this year), or brain, they seem like they stop aggressive action. (People shot in the heart/aorta may stay on their feet for up to a couple of minutes, but they seem to stop aggressive action upon being shot there.)

    In the shootings I've seen, caliber was not really a deciding factor, except as it affected adequate penetration (slow and light bullets sometimes don't get to "the good stuff") - if you have adequate mass and velocity, it should penetrate enough. I've worked on a case in which a world-renowned pathologist told us that he cannot tell the difference between the wound tracks left by 9mms, .40s, .45s, .38s or .357s. (The pathologist himself carries .380 ball . . . .) Expansion of hollowpoint bullets seems to be pretty hit or miss. I like hollowpoints as an overpenetration prevention measure (I've worked on a couple of cases in which folks were hit after bullets totally penetrated the original target) - but this is why I don't like them for low-mass/low-velocity rounds (like .380s or 9x18s).

    You're certainly not going to have a problem with inadequate accuracy or penetration using a .45 ACP in any reasonable bullet weight, but I've worked on plenty of cases in which 9mms, .38s, .380s, and 9 Maks worked just as well and as fast.
    Shot-placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

  13. #28
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    To listen to the news media, you would think that the bad guys/gangbangers are killing each other with AK's and AR's...the evil asault rifle.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  14. #29
    Member Array Erich's Avatar
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    I see some AKs, but more SKSs. SKSs turn up in a lot of cases.
    Shot-placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Over-penetration

    Quote Originally Posted by Erich View Post
    I like hollowpoints as an overpenetration prevention measure (I've worked on a couple of cases in which folks were hit after bullets totally penetrated the original target) - but this is why I don't like them for low-mass/low-velocity rounds (like .380s or 9x18s).
    How many cases? Were they badly hurt? What type of rounds? In the article the author says he never saw anybody killed by a bullet that passed through it's target...did it pass through because the bullet 'burned' him, or did it pass through completely on what would have otherwise been a good shot?
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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