This is a discussion on HK? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; HK did just fine with me , changing my USP safety to a LH user config. back in 93' . I don't think they are ...
January 3rd, 2008 09:18 AM
HK did just fine with me , changing my USP safety to a LH user config. back in 93' . I don't think they are over priced any more than any other quality name maker.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
January 3rd, 2008 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by fairway1
First, understand I'm not picking on HK. They do build a fine gun, I just happen to not like them. I think both Glock and Sig build a better gun that happens to be less expensive. I always advocate buying the best possible equipment. If thats an HK for you, so be it.
I think a lot of buyers do get caught up in the hype, buying HK because thats whats in movies and video games, or because they have tactical this and that and part of their name tags. Sometimes its because its the most expensive thing in the case that gets them
Now lets a better look at costs; Lets say a serious shooter is going to buy a duty size pistol. He plans on being responsible, get lots of training, and shoot a lot. I pick a full size for the example simply because that is the bread and butter of the market.
An HK is going to cost roughly $100. more than a Sig, and 200 to 250 more than a more comparable Glock. Lets say a good number of magazines in 5. I can buy Sig mags all day for $20.00 a piece. Glock mags are about $15.00, less if you know where to look. Ill take your word on the cost of HK mags, I've never shopped for them.
Holster cost is a wash, assuming you can get the one you want for the HK is readily available. Theres our basic package right there.
Your still at least $100.00 more than the Sig, $225-275 more than the Glock.
Now here is where it gets really interesting; Lets say you shoot it enough to start needing to replace parts. Springs, guide rods general maintenance stuff like that. Glock is going to beat both Sig and HK hands down there. But, Sig P series parts are easy and cheap to find at a number of local retailers. HK parts? $$ and 6 to 8 weeks out... if you can get them to talk to you. So your out of service until the brown truck comes by weeks later.
I have to assume most people are not armorers of their brand... thats easy enough. Glock armorers are a dime a dozen, Sig armorers can be found with a little effort. HK??
Now lets say you decide to sell. You have a HK that you bought for 700. You're going to be able to sell it for 500-575 at most. Sig will sell for about the same price... but remember it cost you 100 less in the first place. Glock will sell in the mid 400 to low 500.
SO, you see what Im talking about when I say total cost of ownership.
Again, if the HK works for you great. Its a decent gun, but they are not exactly the best deal when talking about quality combat pistols
January 3rd, 2008 11:10 AM
A possible solution to high price of H&Ks appears...
I had also noticed what Sixto points out here - that H&K USPs seem to depreciate quicker than some other brands, once they are sold on the used market. So I bought both of mine used - $550 for a USP 45 and $625 for a USP 40c. They cost about the same or slightly more than a new Glock. Since USPs are very durable and seem to last forever, a lightly used one seems as good as a new one.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
So this could be an alternative to buying a new USP, if you think they are overpriced.
Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the Peoples' Liberty's Teeth." - George Washington
January 3rd, 2008 11:16 AM
You can find some bargain used USP's out there. I almost picked up a 9mm last night just because it was priced right.
It been my experiance that many are bought and hardly shot if at all. Same could be said about other brands too, but it seems to be more true with HK. I guess they have more impulse buyers.
Here is something else to take a look at... How many seasoned real gun fighters shoot an HK? Not many. Most HK shooters I see are new, and on the younger side.
January 3rd, 2008 12:01 PM
Where are you getting your information. Much of what you've written is the exact oposite of what I've experienced.
Gunfighters don't use them? What??? Where did this statement come from?
Parts 6-8 weeks out?
Where does this data come from. IMHO you are quite misinformed. You don't have to like the company or it's product, that's fine, but making up disparaging inaccurate remarks serves nobody. If you don't use the product, buy the product or believe it's a competitive product, why make posts about it? Makes no sense.
I know many LEOs, OHS, FBI and security personal who swear by HK. Here at Quantico it is highly regarded by many various agencies. If you can produce empirical data to back up your statements I'll change my opinion and sell my HKs at a loss. I don't think I have a worry however.
January 3rd, 2008 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by ripley16
Where does it come from? 15 years of being in the business. If you have good contacts and If you have access to armorers or are capable of doing work yourself, HKs are a viable choice. Most people simply do not have that. The average Joe has to go through normal retail channels for support. I dont, and it sounds as if you dont too. Its a different world if you do have to.
My remarks are not disparaging at all. I've said HK builds a fine gun, I just know people can do a lot better for less money. Thats my only point. If your an HK fan, I think nothing less of you. I wouldnt feel under armed if I had to carry an HK.
Hop on gunbroker and count the LNIB HK's for sale. That suggest impulse buyers remorse to me.
I also know a few LEO's that like HK... so what? Few of them are true gunfighters. You cant count LEO's/military, as most do not get to choose their weapons. They shoot what they are given, and very few know squat about guns. Most departments weapons are chosen by the firearms guys... Most choose the Glock, followed by the Sigs. Cost does play a role as the bean counters get a say too.
I'll bet you a new HK that there are twice or even three times as many Glock, Sig, Beretta, Smith, 1911 or even XD types than those who prefer HK. Thats largely because of the reasons I mentioned. The original poster wanted to know why there isnt more HK fans... I told him why. Thats why I posted such things.
Show me where I'm wrong.
Last edited by SIXTO; January 3rd, 2008 at 02:31 PM.
Reason: Changed structure to make more sense.
"Just blame Sixto"
January 3rd, 2008 02:11 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with SIXTO here. You'll find a lot of like-new HK's on Gunbroker for a variety of prices. That's how I got mine. The owner bought it and supposedly shot it once, brought it home, and his wife went bonkers. I picked it up just a few hours after he put it up for consignment. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's a lot of returns.
I think there is a tendency in the handgun market to buy "Whats popular" - especially when it comes to video games and all that. Everyone wants an HK USP Tactical blah blah blah. I won't lie - I want one too, but maybe down the road when I can pick up some more practical firearms beforehand. Its more the novelty of owning one - like a .50 Deagle. But that's just me... But on the other end of the spectrum we have the people who when they go out and do the research to buy a handgun, they head out with the intention of a few options - usually around the XD/Glock price range. Which makes a LOT of sense. When I went out and bought my handgun, I took a buddy of mine who was an Inf. Sergeant in the USMC. He saw the HK and just told me to buy that for the price. I had no idea what HK was as a company. Buying like that was just stupid. As SIXTO said - I was the typical HK buyer - young, (relatively) new to shooting and it was more of an impulse buy than anything else. Am I glad I don't own a Glock? Yeah because I'd probably never shoot it and I wouldn't feel confident carrying one - for me. Do I think my HK is the end-all be-all of handguns? Hell no.
Looking back on it, I REALLY wish I had gotten something like an XD. Especially for daily carry. Mostly because of how new I was to shooting and owning handguns. It would have been the much more intelligent choice. Because of this, I can see how some buyers like myself would just return them. They paid $850 for a handgun and chances are good that they are only mediocre shooters. I don't care if you spend $2800 or $100 on a handgun - if you don't know how to shoot properly, then you aren't going to hit anything anyhow. Because of that, you'd probably get a lot of returns by people expecting their new tacticool HK USP to make them shoot like a Navy SEAL. Yeah. Whatever. I remember when I first picked mine up I couldn't hit anything with it. But I was stubborn and convinced to learn to make the hits count. And I did!!
The reference to the piss-poor customer service is just a continuation of what I have heard a lot of. I haven't had any experience with HK directly thus far so I can't speak to any of it, but I will say there are a lot of very vocal people out there who say the same thing. I might know a way around it and have access to quicker service, but I have no idea. Hopefully I won't have to find out for a long time.
Overall I would count myself VERY lucky as to how I came about owning and carrying one. Definitely not typical. Hindsight being 20/20, as I said, I'd've rather gotten something like an XD. But seeing how I came about with my current carry, I love it and wouldn't trade the experience for anything.
Sorry for the long post. haha
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"It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008
January 4th, 2008 12:47 AM
HKs, in my experience, are the ultimate in reliability. Should I need to fire my weapon, I know it will go bang and I know the bullet will go exactly where I was aiming.
An HK P2000 .40 is what I trust my family's lives with on a daily basis. I carry primarily in a Smart Carry with no discomfort, no printing, no problems. After putting it on, I will forget it is there until my pants come off at the end of the day.
I own more guns than I care to admit and have a variety of choices. I own many guns that I prefer over HK for a variety of reasons.
However, when I need the right tool for the job of protecting my life, I choose an HK.
January 4th, 2008 01:32 AM
I chose my HK over a variety of others. For my needs the USP fit better than other guns offered at the time. Still does too. Sure lots of people buy guns for silly reasons. Look at how popular the M29 S&W was after Dirty Harry came out.
Bottom line, Hk 's work for me , work well and fit me better/have the features than other brands offered.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
January 4th, 2008 10:20 AM
...and thats great. They are good guns.
Originally Posted by rocky
However, I think what User Name was inquiring about was not only our opinion of the brand but also why they were not as popular as the Glocks, Sigs etc., as far as I can tell, I'm the only one that answered both questions. My comments about HK were only to answer the forgotten part of the OP's post.
January 4th, 2008 08:33 PM
I carry an HK P2000SK every day. I traded one of my older SA Champions for it (HK P2000SK brand new with 4 mags) I simply couldn't pass it up and it was my first HK. I can't say enough good things about it. Just got my night sites in and I'm frantically trying to find a 'smith to install 'em. HK made a believer out of me.
If death is what we fear, our freedoms were never realized.
January 4th, 2008 10:19 PM
My first HK was a .45 P9S, (was stolen (from me)) The 2ND is a MK23, 3RD is a .45C. never a failure of any kind on any of them. FWIW
January 4th, 2008 11:20 PM
I bought a USP 45 full size (variant 1) on the advice of my best buddy a retired 05 of Special Forces who said if he had to take ONE sidearm straight from the box into combat and know it would be 100% reliable, it'd be a USP 45.
So I got one new for about $800 including tax and transfer fee. Not bad. I got three hi-cap 12 rd mags with the gun at no extra cost. It had tritium night sights too. I added a G&G rail adaptor and a Stream Light TLR 1 gun light. The gun has never ever had any sort of malfunction of any sort, ever. But I have smallish hands and it feels a little bit too "blocky" and it never concealed well in the south Florida heat and humidity. So when the H&K 45 appeared to solve these issues with adjustable grips etc AND when the other new H&K P30 appeared (which I also lust over) I had to sit and do some figuring.
I figure: I really wanna take a pistol course next fall at Blackwater USA in Moyock, NC. I'm but a poor school teacher but I did get a bonus (as did the other teachers at my inner city high school) for helping to raise student test scores last year. So I figured that with the bonus and the sale of the gun plus some good old fashioned savings of my normal walking around dough, I could do the Moyock thing in right and proper style and comfort.
So anybody who lusts for MY H&K USP can pick it up to include a Blade Tech OWB (right hand) holster, a Galco "Concealable" model OWB (right hand) holster, the three 12 rd mags for just $650. Plus whatever transfer fees and shipping costs apply. As most will tell you that's not a bad deal when you add in the mags and holsters. I paid about $150 for the holsters alone and the H&K factory hi-cap mags go about $50 each. However, I'm keeping the gun light because it fits my Sig P226 nicely and I'll bet it comes in handy at some point.
Just think, you'll be helping an award winning teacher in an inner city high school to make a life long dream come true. I've always wanted to do one of those "High Speed, Low Drag" gun courses but could never afford it nor did I ever have the time until now. Now I'm pushing 51 and it's almost too late.
Last edited by ExSoldier; January 4th, 2008 at 11:21 PM.
Reason: format issues
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
January 6th, 2008 12:04 AM
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