March 26th, 2008 10:09 AM
Big dog & 18 y/o daughter - advice, please!
My daughter is 18 and a more level-headed young adult you will never find. She's quite aware of the need to conduct herself responsibly, and I have not the shadow of a doubt as to her desire to be wise and do the right thing. She clearly understands and religiously follows the basic rules of firearm safety, and has done some shooting with her 22LR Beretta NEOS.
Weekly, my daughter hikes a mile for her piano lessons, past a place whose owner has a young Saint Bernard. The dog runs free and thinks that the road is his. For example, a couple of nights ago, my wife took our dog out for a run, driving him from here to there and letting him race the car back (we know how to have a good time out here in the country), and the St. Bernard chased our dog onto our property (across property owned by two others down our drive). Some months ago the dog owner was quite unfriendly and hostile when another of our neighbors said something to him about his dogs being on their property. We've had no contact with him so far. I don't know if anyone is home at his place during the day.
We live in the hills, in a very rural county (one stoplight); most lots in our valley are in the 5-25 acre range, there are no leash laws, and ours is a shall-issue state at 21 and open-carry at 18. The roads in our valley are gravel and one could probably take a nap in the road without much danger from traffic.
My wife and I are of the mind to buy an OWB holster for our daughter and let her carry my 9mm 15+1 pistol (or my wife's 5-shot 357 stubby). Here are the questions:
1) Good idea or bad idea for daughter to carry? Are there any non-lethal options worth considering?
2) 5 of 357 or 16 of 9mm? Seems that the likelihood of missing would push us towards the higher capacity option.
3) Should she shoot the first round to scare? We don't do that with people, but it might be legit for an attacking dog.
4) If she shoots at all, should she call the sheriff? Her cell phone works out here, and I know that in any self-defense-against-a-person unholstering it is a good idea. Note that it is not uncommon to hear shots around here (target work out the back door or dispatching a possum).
5) Should she merely "ensure that the threat is stopped" or "ensure that the attacking dog is dead"? If she shoots and hits the dog, I assume that she's being attacked. I do NOT want to pay vet bills for a neighbor's vicious dog; I assume that finishing the job would be in order.
6) If she wounds or kills the dog, should she call the sheriff? Or call the wife to go get the car and run the dog over a few times to make it look like an accident? (Just kidding)
7) If she kills the dog, should she have any contact with the owner, should it be me contacting him, or should she call me home from work to bury the animal without fanfare? "Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up" has a long history in our county, btw.
8) Or should I let my wife walk her past the home with the dog? Of couse, that just means I need the answer to most of these questions on my wife's behalf.
Of course I'm assuming she will need training to make it more likely she'll hit what she aims at (the milk-bottle-pulled-towards-you-on-a-rope trick comes to mind). And we'll check with the piano teacher regarding carry at her home.
I would love to hear any other advice you may have for me, of course. Thanks in advance for your help.
Last edited by Paymeister; March 26th, 2008 at 10:16 AM.
March 26th, 2008 10:15 AM
If it chases your dog onto your property again, I like option 7. Would have the hole allready dug. Going down the road, I would call the sheriff and see what is legal. If you shoot it and the owner is home and sees it, you could have lots of other problems.
March 26th, 2008 10:17 AM
That's a good post. I've often pondered the same scenarios.
Up here lately it's been mountain lions (pumas).
Man about town...
March 26th, 2008 10:22 AM
Assuming this guy isn't a total scumball, I'd go introduce myself. Be neighborly and all that. Who knows, you guys might become friends.
If the visit goes well, I would ask him for advice. Tell him your daughter hikes to her piano class and is worried about his dog. I figure he knows more about his dog than you do, and if you ask him, he might just come up with a solution. Worst case scenario is he says it's a free country, blah, blah, blah. Best case scenario is he secures the dog, or possibly you, your daughter, and his dog can get 'introduced' in a friendly environment. My dog can be agressive to everybody it doesn't know. Unless I am with that person, and then Max will accept him. That might cure the dog chasing your daughter.
If all of that didn't work, then
1. yes it's a good idea for your daughter to carry as soon as she gets enough training and experience to hit what she is aiming at.
2. 9mm, unless the dog is 200 pounds, and then she should carry a shotgun
3. no, a dog can close a short distance suprisingly fast. If it is charging her, I do not believe she would have time for a warning shot, and then get her sights realigned, then assess if another shot is necessary. Shoot to stop the threat.
4. yes, anytime she fires a weapon in defense of herself she should call the sheriff and file a report.
5. always, stop the threat. If the owner isn't there, it is unlikely the dog will get to a vet in the first place.
6. same as number 4
7. no, and neither should you. Let the sheriff talk to the owner. As soon as she fires and the threat is stopped she should be on the phone with you and then 911 in case the owner comes out.
8. Only you can answer that question. It depends how responsible your daughter is. If somebody did have to shoot the dog, it would help to have a 2nd person there as a witness
March 26th, 2008 10:29 AM
Mountain Lions are a different beast. You would most definitly need to call Game and Fish officials if you shot one.
Originally Posted by taggart
March 26th, 2008 10:40 AM
Exactly! A big bottle of pepper spray today until you decide
Originally Posted by Kerbouchard
GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
March 26th, 2008 11:23 AM
We had a problem with the neighbors dogs at my grandparents place. They would routinely come over, and calling the animal patrol they said "until we see them here, we can't do anything." I was bow hunting and was charged by two at once. If i had a gun it would of been throwin lead. My grandfathers reply after that was "we'll shoot them and they'll be here on our property when the dog catcher comes to see it."
March 26th, 2008 11:28 AM
Unfortunately, the problem is usually the a result of the animal's OWNER being a turd, not so much the animal.
Is there animal control you can report this guy to? I'm sure if you and the neighbors report him enough...particularly to the point he's getting fined regularly...he may learn his lesson.
It's amazing how quick people start to behave when it starts hitting their wallets.
March 26th, 2008 12:01 PM
Over the years, I've encountered numerous St. Bernards and while they can have a big bark, and yes they are big, I've never encountered one that would actually attack. I'd try tossing it a few dog treats and I'm betting it becomes a friend in a hurry.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
March 26th, 2008 12:21 PM
Talk to the owner and see if you can deal with this in a friendly manner.
If you can't, start calling the police & animal control on this dog for every incident.
If anything occurs you want a paper trail a mile long to be able to say "Well, if the government had done its job, none of this would have happened!"
Also have a lawyer write a letter and have a marshal deliver it. Shouldn't cost much, but will let the dog's owner know that if his animal is not brought under control consequences he doesn't want will be forthcoming.
March 26th, 2008 12:54 PM
Meet your neighbor and assess the situation. Chances are, he is a level headed guy, like yourself and is willing to do what he can to help his neighbor. If he is not, then at least you have some background info on him, take the meeting/introduction/situation as you will.
Never had any real experience with St. Bernard's but we have plenty of bull terrier type dogs her in southern Louisiana. They are "intimidating" dogs to look at but are pretty much pu$$y-cats, unless they have an a-hole owner. "Treats" beef jerky or other large food item works amazingly well. However, it is a 150lbs plus animal that is capable of hurting/killing your daughter or anyone else not familiar with handling animals. I do not think that shooting the dog would be a good solution. You will still have him as a neighbor in the long run, unless you are planning on moving or he is, which I doubt is going to happen. She is 18. Does she drive? A car or 4-wheeler/golf cart might be a temporary solution until arrangements can be made. She still runs the risk of AD if she is not used to drawing under extremely stressful situations.
IMO I would be extremely upset if someone shot and killed my dog without voicing a concern to me. However, we have very strict leash laws when walking around here and my dog is supervised when he is out in the fenced in yard. He is a English Stafford Terrier blue brindle and is a 40lb. wussy. He is an inside dog and is crate & obedience trained. GREAT with people, however, he detests squirrels,mice and other small furry woodland creatures. If I had a 200lb dog, I would make damn sure that they were confined to my property, by either fence or other restraint device ESPECIALLY if I knew that there were children walking in the vicinity.
TALK to the guy before any of the other decisions are made. I would rather have 2 large St. Bernard's escorting your daughter to her lessons that a BG watching her walking by herself. Let us know how it goes.
March 26th, 2008 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by Kerbouchard
You may also be in the situation to introduce both your daughter AND your dog to this dog. A dog will be far less aggressive with someone it has been socialized with. It may lead to being "greeted" by the dog instead of "chased" by it.
The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.
March 26th, 2008 01:00 PM
If talking to him (first step) doesn't work then call and report him to your local animal control officer and/or sheriff as being owner of a nuisance animal.
Also I'll bet your town/county/state like most others does have a leash law in effect. Once the animal is off of his own property said law and personal responsibility as well as liability does/would go into effect for the animals owner.
Also if possible I would avoid that jerks property.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
March 26th, 2008 01:03 PM
+1 The first thing I would arm her with is a handful of his favorite doggie treats. Soon he'll think daughter=treats and she'll just have to worry about all the drool.
Originally Posted by Supertac45
My dogs are great around people and kids, but other dogs can get them quickly agitated. I'm slowly training it out of them, but after all, they're dogs and it's hard to work against nature.
I would refrain walking your dog by there until they can meet under good conditions (lots of treats for both and both owners present). In the St Bernard's world, he's just defending his territory from your dog's intrusion.
"Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am."
March 26th, 2008 01:47 PM
I too vote for OC spray , in fact visit your local big box store or go online and get bear spray . The dog will get an education its not likely to forget , and when it comes down to it if the owner runs out to complain they may too lol .
Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.
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