Percentage of hits in gunfights

Percentage of hits in gunfights

This is a discussion on Percentage of hits in gunfights within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I can't find it now, but it seems I recall reading that the percentage of hits by LEO's in a gunfight is around 20%. Does ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18

Thread: Percentage of hits in gunfights

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Andy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    983

    Percentage of hits in gunfights

    I can't find it now, but it seems I recall reading that the percentage of hits by LEO's in a gunfight is around 20%. Does anyone know where I can find info on this?
    America: Your government is not ignoring you, it's insulting you.

    The Bill of Rights: Void where prohibited by law.


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Rowlett, Texas
    Posts
    1,739
    Well one of the rookie officers I work with; made a felony stop with me and when he holstered his weapon, he shot himself in the hip. So for him it's 100%........
    Psalms 144:1
    Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
    Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas
    http://www.tac-def-tx.com/
    CHL INSTRUCTOR
    Retired LEO
    NRA member
    TCHA member

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canton, OH
    Posts
    899
    True results are hard to come by. Two references you might look at are

    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
    What Really Happens In A Gunfight?
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  4. #4
    Member Array detroit9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    123
    I recently took a force-on-force class taught by a guy who makes a career out of training police depts. He is a well-respected instructor around here and he stated that while the normal statistic is 10-20% it is more like 8%, My father spent several years as a reserve officer where he trained side by side with full-time officers at the range. He told me most of the regular officers were horrible shots.

  5. #5
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    35,894

    Post This sounds about right to me.

    Nationally, the average hit ratio for law enforcement officers, standing static shooting at a paper target, is 90-plus percent.

    Yet when an officer becomes involved in an OIS (Officer-Involved Shooting) our hit ratio is somewhere around 12 to 18 percent.
    Obviously, some of the loss in accuracy can be attributed to stress and the fact that, in most cases, the officer is firing second in reaction to a shooter.
    But a large percentage of the difference can be attributed to the fact that an officer's instinctive reactions, in most cases, directly oppose the way he or she has been trained.

    Here is the complete article as authored by Michael T. Rayburn
    on PoliceOne.com
    Shooting on the move; using your instincts

    Mike Rayburn is a 17-year veteran of the Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) Police Department and is the author of two books: "Advanced Vehicle Stop Tactics" and "Advanced Patrol Tactics." Mike is also an adjunct instructor for the Smith & Wesson Academy in Springfield, Mass.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    QKS,

    This past Sunday I took an all day/5 hr. course under Mike Rayburn at the S&W Academy and as part of his discussion toward officer survival he spoke toward hit rates for select departments including NYC (Andy - I've posted the specific stats on this in the not so distant past...search) and he went on to state that hit rates for non-federal LEOs meaning rounds fired against rounds that actually hit human flesh were on a national average hovering in the 8% range. As I sat in class I thought to myself that I believe the number is actually even lower than that in the 5% range as per a study by the FBI that was released 2 or 3 yrs. ago. That too can be found if one searches for it.

    Bottom line on the whole LEOs are largely not good shots. :(

    Now some of the reasoning for this is because they are almost always behind the power curve which the FBI report in specific takes into account and detailed with examples and suggestions toward increasing officer survivability via training. Also though many officers do not train. They do not seek out additional/extended training. And as counter intuitive as this might seem also many of them do not properly maintain their weapons to a degree that functionality becomes compromised.
    In fact on Monday I had a second private 1 on 1 course scheduled with a second instructor who like Rayburn is a retired LEO (and the two are very good friends as well) and he along with several other current and retired LEOs that were with us commented that largely the LEOs they have come through who specifically are not SWAT or specifically member of some other action team or are not Federal tend to do so begrudgingly and do whatever they can to just 'pass' or 'qualify'. They commented that it is very rare to have one come through who s paying on their own dime and to in class show keen interest in learning and to take the lesson plan with a high degree of seriousness in attitude. Further they went on to say that most often the LEO students, again average non-specialized police, typically demonstrate skill levels in even basic firearm handling muchless shooting skill ranking in the low to poor levels...as relative to civilian citizens such as myself.

    Andy if you cannot locate the FBI report I mention then let me know via PM and I'll go source it for you as I have posted reference to it in the past at two other gunfu forums.

    Edit:
    The most recent postings I made referencing the NYC stats in specific can be found at; http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...679-post8.html and http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...822-post9.html

    - Janq

    P.S. - I am not a LEO nor am I knocking LEOs at large or the work they do. I am merely reporting the news. As to the news persons inclusive of my as noted instructors Rayburn et. al. they too are not knocking LEOs or the work they do, they themselves are LEOs or retired from said work. At the same time they, and I as a taxpaying citizen who looks to LEOs for aid, are saying in so many words that with training and change of individual mindset and better support from individual departments and agencies too (federal) as well as tax payers (who pay for training budgets and ammo) then the actual real world hit result percentages for officers could be better/higher than they are current and have proven to be in the past.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Andy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    983
    Thanks all, that's very helpful.
    America: Your government is not ignoring you, it's insulting you.

    The Bill of Rights: Void where prohibited by law.

  8. #8
    Member Array rj112275's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    memphis
    Posts
    101
    A real statistic from a buddy of mine... an intruder tried to bust in his front door while he was home. My buddy shot 3 times at near point blank range, and hit the intruder twice and one shot in the door frame. The intruder then gave up and sat down until the cops came. No charges were filed against my friend and the intruder lived. One shot in the arm and one in the shoulder.

    Even at near point blank, good hits are not guaranteed under pressure.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,134
    I dont know of anyone who tracks rounds fired / vs rounds that hit and in what fashon in le . with that being said i dont know that it is worth tracking .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Over here now!
    Posts
    3,617
    I've read (somewhere) that the hit average for LEO shootings is 1 in 6, and that most shootings are within the 3 feet, 3 seconds, and 3 rounds rule.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    I dont know of anyone who tracks rounds fired / vs rounds that hit and in what fashon in le . with that being said i dont know that it is worth tracking .
    Many do during officer involved shootings, that's a norm.

    Recent and infamous examples of as much toward LEOs are in NYC the Sean Bell case where rounds discharged is a key point of the out cry and for a report of same toward their criminal court case to which a decision will be made in the next few days; N.Y. mayor ‘disturbed’ by police shooting - Life - MSNBC.com
    Also reads reference the not so long agao and high media profile case of Rigoberto Alpizar toward how he was shot in a FL jet way by a pair of FAMs. Round count there was also accounted for and documented both in what was discharged as well as hits made to flesh; http://www.miamisao.com/publications...alshooting.pdf

    The FBI and DoJ tally these numbers annually and analyze them to track and possibly learn from.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #12
    Member Array Dusty Miller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Escalon, CA
    Posts
    335
    Somebody who knows more about it than I once observed that law enforcement consists of LONG periods of boredom followed by short periods of sheer TERROR!! I can't imagine that I'd do much better hitting the BG than the guys and gals out there putt'n their lives on the line for us every day. We owe them a great debt.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    If you don't practice you're shooting skills diminish over time if I don't shoot for a couple weeks i can tell the difference in my shooting skills
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canton, OH
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Miller View Post
    Somebody who knows more about it than I once observed that law enforcement consists of LONG periods of boredom followed by short periods of sheer TERROR!! I can't imagine that I'd do much better hitting the BG than the guys and gals out there putt'n their lives on the line for us every day. We owe them a great debt.
    They told me the same thing about flying when I was a student pilot.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  15. #15
    Member Array DaveT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    480
    In the OIS I was involved in many years ago, I fired twice, one round hit him in the heart, the other missed him.

    He had already fired at me, his bullet hit the door frame about an inch from my left ear. As I returned fire, his body twisted and went backwards as he fell on a bed.

    I would like to think that my first round hit him and that the second round missed as the impact from the first round spun him away and down..... but we'll never know. Lots of adrenalin pumping after he fired at me, the rest was pure instinct and training.

    I can understand why lots of LEO's do not hit their target with every round fired. That can only be accomplished in perfect situations.... and life on the street is seldom perfect when the stuff hits the fan. We can attempt to make up for it by training, especially realistic training.... but these days budget shortfalls often result in less money spent on training.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. The Layman's Primer to Movement in Gunfights
    By Guantes in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: March 10th, 2011, 06:00 PM
  2. Gunfights are no laughing matter SNL.........
    By Old School in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: October 5th, 2010, 01:52 PM
  3. Number of Training Hits vs Number of Real Hits
    By limatunes in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: September 17th, 2010, 07:46 AM
  4. Does Conventional Marksmanship Win Gunfights?
    By Matthew Temkin in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: January 25th, 2010, 11:23 PM
  5. What percentage is it?
    By farronwolf in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: May 20th, 2008, 12:58 PM

Search tags for this page

ccw hit percentage vs cops

,

content

,
hits to misses cop shootings civilian shootings
,
national average hit ratio for le gunfight
,

percentage hits misses police shooting

,
percentage of gun shots that hit at 15 feet.
,

percentage of hits

,

percentage of hits by police

,
percentage of hits in law enforcement discharge
,

percentage of hits in police shootings

,

police hit percentage

,

police shooting hit percentage

Click on a term to search for related topics.