Lets ban those evil toy guns

Lets ban those evil toy guns

This is a discussion on Lets ban those evil toy guns within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Concerns that realistic-looking toy weapons are confusing police and threatening safety have led 15 states to try going beyond gun control and cracking down on ...

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Thread: Lets ban those evil toy guns

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Lets ban those evil toy guns

    Concerns that realistic-looking toy weapons are confusing police and threatening safety have led 15 states to try going beyond gun control and cracking down on fake firearms.

    Officer Micheal Hoover knows a fair amount about guns as a sniper instructor for a Tennessee SWAT team. He recalls the night two years ago when a car pulled up beside him on a highway and the passenger waved what looked like an Uzi.

    "It scared me," he said. "If anyone is in their right mind, I don't see how it wouldn't."

    Hoover was off duty and called for police help. A 20-year-old man was charged with aggravated assault after police found a black plastic Uzi submachine gun under the car's passenger seat, but he was acquitted because jurors felt the officer should have been able to tell it was only a toy.

    Lawmakers across the country are coming to a different conclusion, deciding that it is so hard to differentiate the toys from the fakes that public safety demands they take action.

    Among those 15 states, seven bills limiting fake guns are pending this year and 21 have been enacted since 1990, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Some states have enacted or are considering multiple measures. They range from prohibiting imitation firearms in vehicles to banning the toys from convenience stores.

    Tennessee lawmakers are considering a proposal by state Rep. John Deberry to make it a misdemeanor to intentionally display or expose "an imitation firearm in a public place in a threatening manner." Exceptions include justifiable self defense, lawful hunting, and displays such as a museum collection.

    Deberry said he wants to prevent incidents like one last year in which a 12-year-old boy was killed in West Memphis, Ark. DeAunta Farrow was shot by a police officer who said he thought the boy was carrying a gun and that the youngster refused to obey orders to halt. Investigators later said DeAunta had a toy gun.

    "It's important that a child cannot walk into one of these little convenience stores, plop down a dollar and walk out with something that can get him shot on the spot without question," Deberry said.

    A spokeswoman for the Toy Industry Association declined to comment on the trend toward fake gun legislation but referred a reporter to its Web site, which states that it "emphatically rejects the scenario that casts toys as villains."

    Federal law requires toy guns or imitations to bear an orange tip to indicate they're not real.

    However, lawmakers say those tips are often disguised or removed.

    "It only takes 30 seconds for a kid to either take a marker or some paint, or shoe polish, and that orange tip is gone," said Deberry. He said the imitation guns are nearly identical in size, design and color to real ones.

    "One of the imitation weapons I got at a convenience store looked very much like the assault weapons that the secret service and other FBI agents carry under their suits," he said. "Another one was a handgun that had a silencer on it."

    New Jersey state Sen. Bob Smith has proposed legislation that would make it a crime to remove the tips or "obscure" a firearm by adding a tip to it.

    "If police are called to the scene and don't see those tips, then they open fire because it appears the person has a deadly weapon," said Smith. "The officer doesn't have too many choices."

    In Florida, state Sen. Gary Siplin has a bill that would prohibit individuals from carrying a paintball gun in a vehicle. He said he had been told about youngsters brandishing such guns while driving. He said if they're bold enough to do that they might use the fake weapon to commit a crime.

    "Sometime these people try to go into a store and try to rob it with a toy gun, and if the police come they may shoot thinking it's a real gun," Siplin said.

    The leading U.S. opponent of gun control doesn't think much of legislation that seeks to control fake guns.

    National Rifle Association spokesman Ashley Varner said anti-toy gun legislation is "silly" because "it doesn't deal with issues of crime."

    "It won't eradicate the human element of the crime," she said. "It doesn't target getting criminals off the street."
    I'm thinking somebody points a weapon at me and i can't readily tell it's a toy it will be the last thing they do,as far as paintball guns the big air tank is a giveaway
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Roadrunner's Avatar
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    "Sometime these people try to go into a store and try to rob it with a toy gun, and if the police come they may shoot thinking it's a real gun," Siplin said.
    That's exactly what they should do! Does the fact that they are using a look-a-like to commit a violent crime make it any less violent or them less guilty? NO! The criminals are the ones that chose to commit a robbery, and if they perish in the act, GOOD! It's hard to be a recidivist if you're dead.
    - Kurt
    “Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it.” ~Pericles of Athens
    Primary Carry - Colt Commander .45 in a Brommeland Max-Con V

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I'm thinking somebody points a weapon at me and i can't readily tell it's a toy it will be the last thing they do,as far as paintball guns the big air tank is a giveaway
    Airsoft look pretty realistic even with the orange tip. You can't inform people with ignorance. Teaching kids about guns is far more effective in preventing such incidents than keeping them ignorant.
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

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  5. #4
    Member Array Lurch's Avatar
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    is it illegal to paint orange tips on real guns?

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array Dakotaranger's Avatar
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    It could be one of those stories that appear every so often that could be conceiveably a 'cover you're six' story just in case a cop is confronted with a Darwin Award nominee.

    None the less it is a really stupide story
    "[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
    They are left in full possession of them."

    Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~Alexander Hamilton

  7. #6
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    Array rstickle's Avatar
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    Federal law requires toy guns or imitations to bear an orange tip to indicate they're not real.
    In EOD School they used to say that a color code meant someone had been near the ordnance with paint.

    This is the same bad idea. Some day someone is going to dip his weapon into dayglo orange paint to get that couple seconds advantage.

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  8. #7
    Member Array Skysoldier's Avatar
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    What the heck happend to this country? when I was a kid we wanted our toy guns to look real. I wouldn't have played with one with an orange tip now any kid playing with a cap gun takes a chance on meeting the local SWAT team. We took a wrong turn somwhere. Back when my Grandson was about 4 (hes 14 now) I went to a toy show and payed a pretty good price for a set of cap guns and holsters for him I didn't find out till years later my Son in law had put them away for that same reason he was afraid to let him play with them. What the libs and bleeding hearts have done to this country make me want to throw up!

  9. #8
    Member Array phast12's Avatar
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    <Sarcasm>Did i miss something I could have swore that kids have been playing with toy guns for years. No i must be wrong we couldn't actually teach children and adults that safety is their responsibility. </Sarcasm>
    My world is the only one that counts

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    When I was kid toy guns were normal and average to have along with BB and pellet rifles which though 'youth' sized also looked like the real thing of the day (cowboy style). Cap guns, snap guns, spark making/shooting guns, guns that were lighters, metal guns that looked real and were worn in cowboy holsters that did nothing but go 'Bang!' as per ones imagination.

    Thing is times and ways of when I was a kid is completely wholly different than things are today, which is sad.
    We've had here in this forum a thread on Airsoft pistols with 'fake' being right next to the real and challenging one to tell the difference between the two. I by chance scored a 100%...but I sat and reviewed those pics for 5 minutes before making my post. A police as in the story does not have that opportunity. I've also posted news story of a woman in my own community that last year made aggressive action against a police using a BB pistol she had prior bought from my local Dick's that was of high realism. Then there is also my own thread about the BB pistol I too bought from Dicks's that looks, sounds, and acts with moving slide for recoil _just_ like the real Walther it is based on. It's even made of metal and has heft like the real thing too.

    I personally agree with this motion, you use these products be they toys or replicas or actual air guns (metal BB, pellet, and Airsoft too) in commission of a crime then you will be subject to same penalty of law as you would had that toy/replica/air gun actually been a real firearm. No ah ha I was just foolin' excuses allowed. Even those modern day pistols that have a red or orange colored barrel end should be subject to this.

    The bottom line is simple.
    You exercise intent then it will be taken as that, you had intent.

    You brandish a 'fake' firearm, then your intent was to brandish a firearm.
    You point a fake 'fake' firearm at another person, then your intent was to instill fear by means of a deadly weapon whether it be stylized and fake or real and actual.
    You enter a bank, school, airport, *.Non-Permissive Environment with a toys or replicas or actual air gun firearm where laws and regulations do not allow as much with [quote fingers] 'real firearms' then you too will be subject to same punishment as are persons who do the same with said real firearms and thus criminal action if not active intent.

    It's pretty easy and simple to not get dinged over this stuff.
    Play with your Airsoft in your yard or on your own property, no problem.
    Play with as much on school or public grounds, and that is a problem.
    Walk into a store or say drive in your car and brandish as much in an aggressive manner (as was detailed in this story) then you too will be punished just as though the item had been [quote fingers] 'real'.

    Airsoft Etiquette
    YouTube - Airsoft Etiquette (Single Stream)
    Note the stated 'Rules of Airsoft' at the 2:00 mark.

    As to fake and 'toy' guns and Airsoft et. al take a look at these and wonder to yourself if flashed or displayed to you would you in an instant be able to ascertain whether these are real, fake, toys, or the real thing...

    1 -
    2 -
    3 -
    4 -

    ...These are not 'toys' but real functioning hardware which shoot projectiles that are owned, possessed, kept, and handled by adults and 'kids' alike.
    Which of these are real firearms and which are the 'toys'?
    To make things easier two of these pics are real and the other two are of Airsoft product.
    Now imagine yourself as you Joe Blow citizen or worst a police trying to ascertain and make this decision in an instant with just a flash picture of said 'gun' toward whether it's a toy or not. Not so easy.

    All of this is common sense though unfortunately common sense is uncommon or atleast less so much than it has been in the past. As a result there are fools and unthinking persons running around every day doing stupid and wrong crap (like in this story). As a result of their unthinking and uncaring actions they cost them and more importantly all of us greatly, even as we ourselves in specific did nothing wrong.
    We are our brothers keeper and our sons pay do pay for the stupid unthinking and uncaring sins of their father, just as the Bible says.

    - Janq

    "Stupid is as stupid does." - Forrest Gump's momma

    Note: Pics 1 and 2 are real firearms. Pics 3 and 4 are all Airsoft related 'toys'.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
    is it illegal to paint orange tips on real guns?
    That is a very interesting question! I wonder if a BG has ever thought of doing that, to avoid being shot by police.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  12. #11
    Member Array boardsurfer's Avatar
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    Janq -

    That G19 in pic 4 is airsoft?


  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yes BoardSurfer, they _both_ are AirSoft pistols.
    Tricky huh?!

    The source of that pic is from here where the owner provides a detailed review of the HK replica; ArniesAirsoft: TM MK23 NBB review

    And here is another pic of a very convincing AirSoft replica even as based on it's disassembled parts and in as shown condition of slide lock...

    "Overall, I really like the silver Para-Ordnance P14-45. It retains the best features of John Browning's 1911 design and combines it with a decent capacity magazine. WA match that up to the tried and trusted (and powerful) SV Infinity gas system and produce a stylish and highly functional airsoft pistol."
    Source - Para Ordnance P 14-45 Silver - Western Arms ( Buy, Pictures, Info )

    Again AirSoft products are _not_ the 'toys' and cap guns that we of yesteryear had and used to play with. They are designed to function, feel, look, and 'shoot' just like the real thing. They cycle like real guns now, they fit into real gun holsters applicable to a given make and model. They have even magazines designed to appear and heft the same as a real gun.
    Of course not all of them are this well done such as the garbage sold on the shelves at the local Dick's but these and others like them are very easy to secure online and via e-Bay and are very popular...even over in the UK where the above site and reviews originate from.

    If someone were to pull an AirSoft pistol on me on the street, especially at night (!), then that someone would by me be seen and thought of to be an active imminent danger threat against my person.
    Those who wish to play games should know and understand what they stand to lose.

    BTW my own Crosman BB pistol is this model and it too like AirSoft is hyper realistic by intended design.
    It would take an astute and sharp eye to note that it is not real even upon handling it's feel and heft in hand.

    Crosman 'Walther CP99' blowback CO2 powered BB pistol
    YouTube - Umarex Walther CP99 Blowback CO2 Pistol
    YouTube - Umarex Walther CP99 CO2 Blowback Pistol part 1

    I bought mine from Dick's on sale 3 yrs. ago for IIRC $69 against $99 retail (open box display model) and it's been GREAT for use toward practice with point and low light shooting inside and around my house.
    Best of all it functions exactly like the real thing including going to slide lock on empty and having the same type magazine release too. A great introductory 'gun' too for gun newbies and those who might be afraid of firearms.

    These things are serious business and definitely not 'toys' by appearance, use, or function.

    - Janq

    P.S. - My gun did not have an orange barrel coloration either, nor does any of the Crosman airgun replica pistols or revolvers as far as I'm aware of.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array snowdoctor's Avatar
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    The committing of a crime with a toy gun is tried and prosecuted no different than if it was a real gun...IF SIXTO or other LEO are reading am I wrong?
    If you use a toy to commit a felony, the charges are not different....they treat it like a firearm.

    I grew up with toy guns, my son who is 3 has a mess of them, and we hunt deer on tv or bunnies in the yard every chance we get...but I am also teaching responsibility....which should be the parents JOB

    --people ask why I carry, and I show them this picture. I think it says it all.--

    NRA Certified Instructor--many disciplines

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    oddly enough most good airoft manufacturers actualy get liscences from the manufacturers of real guns so they can make things more realistic. such as the "soft air" AK's and sigs, the echo 1 MP5's, ak's and such, ant the classic army AR15's
    "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
    -Winston Churchill
    Every well-bred petty crook knows: the small concealable weapons always go to the far left of the place setting.
    -Inara, firefly

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