Firearms Storage: Do not be this guy

This is a discussion on Firearms Storage: Do not be this guy within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by ccw9mm That's one way to read it. Either way, nobody's jabbing fingers in your chest. I get riled by bureaucratic attempts at ...

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Thread: Firearms Storage: Do not be this guy

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    That's one way to read it. Either way, nobody's jabbing fingers in your chest.

    I get riled by bureaucratic attempts at intelligent nannyism, as well.

    But in point of fact, the thread's topic post is about a specific MA home and ignorance of applicable MA law. To some, the reading is that not being so ignorant of one's applicable laws is a better road to follow. Leastwise, it certainly helps keep your keister out of a sling that's swung by sniveling bureaucrats and a criminal legislature.

    If we're going to read the general case on storage, let's state the general case: safe storage (not safe storage in anything but a $3000+ safe). I'd be willing to bet, KB, that your firearms on your wall or in your case are more secure behind the early warning cordon at your home than the originally-referenced MA homeowner's locked home.

    To each his own.
    You're right, of course, and I apologize. I misread your post(#10) as a personal affront. I would by no means leave guns out when strangers are coming to visit my home, especially if I was not home. Leaving the key in his cabinet was irresponsible when he knew his realtor would be showing his house.

    The beauty of the internet. Inflection is not so easily read and many things can be misinterpreted. Good night to you, and thanks for clearing it up.

    P.S. I had to look up the word 'cordon'...so if anything I've at least learned something today. :-)
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    How am I supposed to grab a rifle if I need one, if I have it stored Massachusetts-style?
    Here is just 1 of 1,000 safe solutions toward as much...

    Note the electronic keyless keypad.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    The thread was about being irresponsible for storing guns in any place other than a $3000 safe.
    No, it was not as I said nothing about a $3,000 safe (?).
    Why would one need a $3,000 safe when solutions for as much are existent and readily available for zero dollars free?


    Project ChildSafe - Putting a lock on safety in your community

    I'm sorry, but this is one of the topics that gets me riled up...

    So, maybe the gun cabinet that Janq found was 'illegal' in his state...but his thread title was for us to 'not be that guy.' Well, that guy has a nicer cabinet then I have, and I don't think that makes me irresponsible.
    Don't be this guy as in not being aware of and not following state law.
    Not leaving the _key_ to his gun safe in the safe and available to the public to activate or take (!) knowing that the egenral public is and will be wlaking through ones home with minimal direct observation.
    And don't be that guy who places valuables like a rack of guns in your front window with the key in the lock highly visible for any and all persons to happen by to see and knowing how not all of us are friendly types and we don't all live in areas where our neighbors are on constant 24/7 watch (this guys neighbors were away at work like most people at 11A on a Friday morning) of their neighbors homes and the comings or goings of persons strange to them no matter what the reason real or whatever that they might be on so n so neighbors property.
    Last item why risk it anyway? How would you feel to come home and have your long guns or for that matter any guns stolen? Or as another earlier mentioned having your own guns drawn on you? or having your guns stolen and hit the streets to a day/week/month/year/decade later wind up in the hands of the guy who decides he didn't get enough sprinkles on his McCone and decides to come back and gun down my wife and kids who just happened to be standing in line and in sprinkle boys way being serviced by the McWorker who minutes earlier shorted him on his sprinkle count? How would you feel about that knowing that if you had simple removed the key and hid it somewhere you could have prevented or at least directly dissuaded a crime...by your own gun?
    Heck to hell with me and mine, lets say it's yours and you standing in line.

    This is a topic that gets me riled up too. Which is exactly why when I saw what I saw I did not let it slide or ignore it. I took direct and immediate action and further educated the realtor as well as later in the day my own realtor (I sent him an e-mail with the MA statute toward this and asked that he forward it to the other agent to share with the homeowner directly).
    Now imagine if I had been an anti and had come across this infraction. The holy hell stink I could have raised including on the sly making a call to the town or state PD and reporting this homeowner could have cost him much public embarrassment, his MA FID or LTC, and very possibly his future ability for life to possess a firearm in this state which the record of would follow him anywhere else in the US should he decide to move and try again elsewhere.
    Or imagine if I had been criminal minded. Opportunity was right there and the choice was my own with no one to sway or stop me.

    The choice was mine, as it was the homeowners, and as it is your own.
    I looked out for a 'neighbor' and fellow pro-gun person, who does not know me from Adam, and I'm doing the same by posting this thread detailing the situation as it occurred to me today for others to know if they did not know and to remind those who are aware.

    The choice was mine today to be that guy, only a different guy than him.

    - Janq

    "It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user....A violation of the provisions of this section shall be evidence of wanton or reckless conduct in any criminal or civil proceeding if a person under the age of 18 who was not a trespasser or was a foreseeable trespasser acquired access to a weapon, unless such person possessed a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B and was permitted by law to possess such weapon, and such access results in the personal injury to or the death of any person." - MA General Laws, TITLE XX. Public Sfaety and Good Order, Chapter 140: Section 131L, 'Weapons stored or kept by owner; inoperable by any person other than owner or lawfully authorized user; punishment'
    M.G.L. - Chapter 140, Section 131l
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Janq,
    I was going to send you a PM, but I'll do it here instead. You are right, as I said to CCW. By the title of your thread, I assumed you were talking about every state, "Regardless of state laws and penalty potential". In MA, you are absolutely correct and I applaud your reserve in educating the owner of the home without resorting to police involvement which could have adversely effected his right to keep and bear arms.

    As such, I will respectfully bow out of this thread. Thanks for keeping up on your local laws. It's people like you that help keep the anti's in check by helping to ensure that the anti's do not acquire more 'ammo' so to speak.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    I have bought and sold five houses. I have learned that people will snoop around in everything regardless of whether it has anything to do with buying the house. There are also people who have no intention of buying a house, but they go to open houses and to showings as entertainment specifically to snoop through other people's stuff. I've seen realtors do it as well.

    So guns and ammo are all locked up when the house is on the market. When I had dogs the dog crates had clip fasteners on them. We had notes posted on the door and on the crates to leave the dogs alone. Our realtor put it in the listing to leave them alone. We put the crates in an out of the way spot so no one would need to bother them. The reason is our lab was timid and timid dogs will bite. Well we come home after a showing and find out that one of the women who was looking at the house tried to get into the crate that held our lab. Fortunately for everyone she couldn't figure out a simple clip fastener. She was so stupid she was trying to open this crate while a lab is in it, backed all the way in, growling. Who knows what similar idiots would do if they found a firearm.

    I "move out" as much as possible before putting a house on the market. Let the snoopers search empty drawers and cabinets.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    The thread was about being irresponsible for storing guns in any place other than a $3000 safe.

    I'm sorry, but this is one of the topics that gets me riled up. Just because some of you live in some Comy state that requires locks or a safe, doesn't mean the rest of us are irresponsible.

    I remember taking the drill and hanging a gun rack above my bed to hang up my 30-30 and my .22 when I was about 10. I guess in your states my parents should have been arrested.

    It's not like that everywhere. There are still places where we stand up for ourselves and we take responsibility for our own actions. There are people left who do not require the government to make our choices for us.

    I don't need my decisions sactioned by the government. As far as if this places me at risk for theft, I challenge you to find a safe that a determined burglar with 8 hours of free time cannot get into. I am assuming you are talking about if I am at work and somebody robs my home, right? 8-9 hours is a lot of time for somebody to drill a safe.

    By the way, things are different here. The last time a UPS driver turned up my driveway(yesterday) I got two phone calls from neighbors. 1 of them asked if I was expecting a package, the other asked if I wanted him to pick it up for me.

    If a thief wants to try to rob my house, he has more to worry about than the police showing up, or trying to get through a safe. I challenge him to get up the driveway without being noticed. Then he needs to get past my dogs. Then he needs to defeat my alarm system.

    If you break into my house, you're going to get shot...coming and going. That's just how we do it here.

    I have a rifle in my trunk(loaded) and a revolver in my console(also loaded). If I am outside of my home I have a pistol with me. My neighbors are the same. I know everyone of them by name and I know when their second cousin has the flu. I know that Jerry hates Kimbers(although I am trying to change his mind) and I know that Vince won't carry anything but a 1911. He thinks plastic belongs in the kitchen.

    So if you think my gun rack is an easy target or irresponsible, I would have to say that I believe it is pretty well protected.

    So, maybe the gun cabinet that Janq found was 'illegal' in his state...but his thread title was for us to 'not be that guy.' Well, that guy has a nicer cabinet then I have, and I don't think that makes me irresponsible.
    Excellent post.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  8. #22
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    When I was a kid I made a little wooden gun rack that would hold two guns, (I only had one gun, but I was hopeful for another). Actually I still have it, though I don't use it anymore. At the time my Dad had a store-bought wooden gun rack that held his three guns and it hung in a place of honor....... over his bed. We couldn't afford the wooden gun cases with the glass doors, so we used what we had available.

    We displayed our guns because we were proud of them. In the 1960's no one was breaking in houses at near the rate that they do now. Within our group of family and friends there was no need to "lock" up the guns because we kids would have gotten a butt-whipping like nobody's business had we crossed the line of gun safety.

    Fast forward to today. I have my guns locked up in two big safes along with a home security alarm, and other security factors. It has been my choice to buy the safes because in today's world a real chance exists that some meth-head will break in here and take my guns to sell so he can fuel his habit.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  9. #23
    Member Array bluedaisy's Avatar
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    shocked

    OK, how about this...and dare I say it's worse! When we were house hunting a year and a half ago, I was opening up different cabinets in the kitchen, when lo and behold, on one of the bottom cabinets, next to the dishwasher, there was a handgun. A far cry from the cookie sheets I was expecting to see! Not only was the cabinet not locked, and totally accessible to a crawling baby, it was hastily thrown in there, so when I opened it up, it dislodged and nearly fell out. Of course, it was stored with a bunch of ammo, some in the box, some dumped over. I remember it was a .40 semi auto. God's protection is so evident. At the time they were 15 months and barely 3years old. My son especially was opening up cabinets to see what he could find.

    The seller didn't have kids, but really, how dumb is it to leave a gun totally accessible like that...to anyone?!
    "Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." - Adolf Hitler

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    The thread was about being irresponsible for storing guns in any place other than a $3000 safe.

    I'm sorry, but this is one of the topics that gets me riled up. Just because some of you live in some Comy state that requires locks or a safe, doesn't mean the rest of us are irresponsible.
    From time-to-time, I wish that I could do a poll to sort out the various opinions express in some of these threads, by sub-group of the members responding.

    I wonder how much correlation there is between conflicting opinions and the various States members live in; or the Standard Metropolitan Statistical Areas the members live in vs other Standard Metropolitan Statistical Areas of others; or the members who live in any Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area vs. the members who live in real rural areas; East Vs. West; North Vs. South; Vet Vs. Non-vet; age; income level; etc

    There is an old saying that, "Where you sit determines where you stand."

    I wonder what it is that divides us on so many issues.

    FWIIW -- I think of guns as any other valuable and useful inanimate object. Some are in a safe. Others are ready at hand, but not all necessarily always under my direct immediate control.

    YMMV -- I wonder why.
    Last edited by DaveH; May 31st, 2008 at 08:48 PM. Reason: typos, spellos, and general fuzzos
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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    unless such weapon is secured in a locked container
    I happen to have a "locked container" for all of my guns.

    I call it a "house".

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluedaisy View Post
    The seller didn't have kids, but really, how dumb is it to leave a gun totally accessible like that...to anyone?!
    Very dumb.

    BTW in MA as in every state in the US there are laws toward Child Endangerment.

    Now lets say that my house visit owner or your own did not have children. Okey dokey fine. And lets ignore the concept of potential for theft and pretend hypothetically that these homes are in neighborhoods or regions or states (!) where property crimes such as burglary and home invasion are very low and is close to nil.
    Lets say were are in a modern times Mayberry, NC. A place where the sheriff carries no gun, the deputy keeps just one bullet and it's in his breast pocket, and the town drunk (singular) he goes and locks himself into the town/county/state jail whenever he senses that he's inebriated because hey he's that much of a stand up guy.
    Now insert a Century 21 or Remax or even FSBO sign to the front of Mr. Murphy's home indicating it's on the market and prospective buyers they begin calling to make visitation appointments.
    He's got a gun cabinet in the living room locked with the key in the lock highly visible and/or he's got a handgun with assorted boxed and unboxed ammo stored loose in an unlocked kitchen drawer.

    Now with that setup lets take a look at the Child Endangerment law for MA in specific...

    The General Laws of Massachusetts

    PART IV. CRIMES, PUNISHMENTS AND PROCEEDINGS IN CRIMINAL CASES

    TITLE I. CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS

    CHAPTER 265. CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON

    Chapter 265: Section 13L. Wanton or reckless behavior creating a risk of serious bodily injury or sexual abuse to a child; duty to act; penalty

    Section 13L. For the purposes of this section, the following words shall have the following meanings:—

    “Child”, any person under 18 years of age.

    “Serious bodily injury”, bodily injury which results in a permanent disfigurement, protracted loss or impairment of a bodily function, limb or organ, or substantial risk of death.

    “Sexual abuse”, an indecent assault and battery on a child under 14 under section 13B of chapter 265; indecent assault and battery on a person age 14 or over under section 13H of said chapter 265; rape under section 22 of said chapter 265; rape of a child under 16 with force under section 22A of said chapter 265; rape and abuse of a child under section 23 of said chapter 265; assault with intent to commit rape under section 24 of said chapter 265; and assault of a child with intent to commit rape under section 24B of said chapter 265.

    Whoever wantonly or recklessly engages in conduct that creates a substantial risk of serious bodily injury or sexual abuse to a child or wantonly or recklessly fails to take reasonable steps to alleviate such risk where there is a duty to act shall be punished by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 2 1/2 years.

    For the purposes of this section, such wanton or reckless behavior occurs when a person is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that his acts, or omissions where there is a duty to act, would result in serious bodily injury or sexual abuse to a child. The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard of the risk constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.


    Source - M.G.L. - Chapter 265, Section 13l
    Go to Jail. Go directly to jail. Do not collect $200!

    Now some folk from fill int he blank coast or state or generation might think and say yeah but that's the traditionally anti-gun Northeast or that's MA where all the commies live.
    To that I say; "Okay."

    Then go to your own state govt. website and do as I did.
    Search for the laws in your own state toward child endangerment and note what your home zone laws state.
    While you're at it check to see what if any proper and safe storage laws there are too.
    After that check your personal liability insurance coverage to note it's maximums and conditions of incident coverage.
    Because it's very likely that if you roll like Mr. Murphy and you happen to roll snake eyes on that one day when there is a dark cloud over your own homes normally sunny blue skies, then guess who could if not would be in a whole heap of trouble should some one get hurt or worst a buyer from the commie northeast decide to move to your community and they or worse their minor aged child (!) happen to come across your drawer gun or unsecured longarms display case.
    What happens if said buyer palms your gun and walks with it or hurts himself or others upon handling it, in your home? Or worse a minor does?

    I'll tell you what happens...
    Trouble. Legal trouble, and lots of it.
    Also you wind up another sucker in the news featured as a poster child for the Brady bunch with 'See I told Ya!' emblazoned in all caps below your booking mug shot or a pic of your firearm.
    And you wind up being talked about in gunfu forums as being yet another one of those guys to which as a result of some easily avoidable situation will be another hammer toward another nail in our 2A rights coffin. Moms will march and count themselves to be in the millions. Hand wringers will rub their skin raw. And talking heads will go blue in the face on the TV spouting 'facts' and 'figures' toward how guns are the bane of our existance.
    Awesome. Excellent. Thanks.

    But hey I don't make the laws.
    I don't set the rules. Do what you will in your home as you deem prudent.
    Get caught or reported or involved though in some stuff by some other guy,or his minor aged kid, and yeah you too like anyone else regardless of what residential or time zone you might live in or what your grandpa used to do when they still made Oldsmobiles and guns could be bought over the counter at Sears, you too will find yourself in a whole mess of trouble and can talk that yeah but but but stuff to your cellmate until you are black n' blue in the face.

    Don't shoot the messenger.

    - Janq

    P.S. - By the letter of the MA specific law on the subject of Chapter 265: Section 13L there is no limitation to just a home onwer in such specific case. This is applicable to whom ever. In the case of realtor such as what happened to me showing a home with a gun cabinet having it's key still in the lock, acting not as a lock but a handle, with firearms and or ammunition within it would herself be liable criminally along with the homeowner. If a prospective buyer entered the house and their minor aged child got hold of said firearm and anti-gun mom or dad saw that, guess who they will be looking to as having been responsible. Yep the agent. And again read the text of the law carefully. Note the areas I have bolded. Serious business.
    I don't know of such a situation having occurred as yet but it's reasonable to assume as much has, somewhere. And if it has not who would want to be the test case and why when it's easy enough to simply remove the key and avoid trouble rather than attempt to make repairs after the wheels have fallen off.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #27
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    The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard of the risk constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.
    Well now Janq, looks as if the local jury has the last say as to what "constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation."

    Somehow, I expect that varies around the country.
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    More like the local District Attorneys office Dave, to secondarily be reviewed by a judge in my zone or jury in other folks.

    Why gamble your freedoms and/or potentially some other persons well being on that of maybe a jury of my peers might not think me unreasonable?

    BTW the law in MA, as I cited prior, specifically states firearms are to be stored locked.
    Generally a 'reasonable' person obeys the law. Generally.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    In MA, you are absolutely correct and I applaud your reserve in educating the owner of the home without resorting to police involvement which could have adversely effected his right to keep and bear arms.

    As such, I will respectfully bow out of this thread. Thanks for keeping up on your local laws. It's people like you that help keep the anti's in check by helping to ensure that the anti's do not acquire more 'ammo' so to speak.
    Kerbouchard, I should have followed your lead -- as I too applaud Janq's reserve in educating the owner of the home without resorting to police involvement which could have adversely effected his right to keep and bear arms.

    Jang, I meant no criticism of your advice re: MA.

    However, I do think that there is a underlieing tone of one-size-fits-all, which I am not so sure is universally applicable across this great land.

    However, in respect to you knowledge of the MA situation, I'll accept that your generalities were meant to be MA specific.
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Dave,

    Again check ones own state laws as I'd suggested to be sure and see if, where, and how same similar applies.
    Pick a state and check it's laws as it's easy enough to do toward this subject.
    Further even if a given state does not require securing of ones firearm when stored again check the child endangerment laws too.

    Beyond that and laws aside, why would one want to store their firearms (valuables) in such a manner as in the case locked with the key in the lock? That's point less. Might as well leave the case door wide open or have no covering/door at all. And to that too, why?
    Same goes to Bluedaisy's observation of a homeowners gun and ammo left in a kitchen drawer during a public access showing. Why not lock it up?
    Why expose ones self to unnecessary potential of trouble with the law and criminal or even civil court. Also why be another guy whose gun is added to the criminal street use supply due to theft by making so it's stupid easy to steal the firearm from you?
    Folks speak of neighbors looking out for neighbors. Then how about looking our for yours neighbor and locking up your as stored firearms. It does not require a lot of money or effort to do so.

    This is not just toward MA residents but everyone.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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