The SIG 226 and P12.45 sagas!

This is a discussion on The SIG 226 and P12.45 sagas! within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Ok - for those who are in the know re my probs with 226 at a recent steel shoot and, my P12.45 extraction prob's I'd ...

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Thread: The SIG 226 and P12.45 sagas!

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    The SIG 226 and P12.45 sagas!

    Ok - for those who are in the know re my probs with 226 at a recent steel shoot and, my P12.45 extraction prob's I'd had - UPDATE!! Sorry - my usual verbose self so bit long!

    Went over to the Wed's .22 pinshoot later this afternoon but left myself over an hour of extra time so I could get some shooting in on the outdoor pistol range... all to myself - nice!

    I first tried and tested the P12.45, post the fitting of my new Wilson extractor. YeeHaw! Ran like a good 'un. Only put about 50 or so rounds thru but oh my - what a joy. Suddenly this has become what I always wanted it to be - 100%, nary a hiccup - and it is sweet. I take back any disparaging remarks I may have made in past re Para's - this now is one very nice experience and I trust it.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The SIG - well all is not quite perfect tho way better, and I think I have realized what is affecting it. For those I didn't tell - SIG suggested when I spoke with them - put a bunch more ammo thru yet, like another 200 - 300.

    Loaded up all my mags first with American Eagle - so, 2x20, 1x15 (other 15 was put aside with carry ammo) and 3x10. Put that 85 rounds thru and only IIRC about three minor feed probs, the sort that tap-rack-bang easily deal with. Then to almost tempt providence - loaded same mag's with the dreaded S&B!

    This actually shot almost OK but again the odd poor feed but not bad ones. So we are up to about 170 rounds now. I thought OK - lets ''use up'' more of this S&B and went thru another 60 or so - BUT!!!! Problems began to show. I now got the odd stovepipe - still easy to clear but worst was later on the dread misfeed and mag jam. That is where the rising round goes too high (too slow off the mag) and jams against top of chamber - leading to that round's base pressing down bullet of next round in mag such that it is pointing down, and thus the rounds under it - if that makes sense!! If you've had this failure you'll know what I mean! Things are well jammed.

    This requires a mag drop and shake free loose round, whack mag to reinstate normal round locations and reinsert and chamber a fresh one. Nasty drill - I'll call it the ''you are screwed'' failure!

    So - my conclusion was - std pressure ammo will not run right thru a filthy gun - because by this stage I had a lotta soot around muzzle and plenty of mess internally. I had gone to that steel shoot with a dirty gun - perhaps thinking like with my BHP - it'll run better! Wrong!

    It has to be a problem from fouling tho arguably not something that should happen anyways. I can say tho that however dirty this gun is my carry +P GD's will always run - 100%.

    I intend now to do a scrupulous clean - maybe a gentle extra lap of slide to rails (same material, being ST, so lapable) - and then hope to go throw another 100 rounds thru when the chance. If that lot goes well then I will happlily reinstate the gun back to carry - knowing that the +P ammo is flawless for function.

    I guess, looking back - this occurrence was first time I had gotten the gun so badly fouled up. Still think it should be more forgiving but not as concerned as I was. More feedback as it becomes available.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    TheJamya had the dreaded 3 point jam or Stem Bind I would look at mag springs a burr on rails or slide and maybe a weak recoil spring ... All the things in a 1911 that create it so why not same in a sig?

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    Mag springs seem fine Bud - tho I have yet to check followers in detail - may well be I can smooth those up a shade.

    I could not find any burr previously on rails and no reason i could think off why this all should happen, except for gun crud build up.

    As said tho I am going to gently lap slide to frame when I clean it tomorrow and hope to find things go better next time - in fact expect 100 rounds from clean to go totally OK.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    You know what?

    Just mail them both to me. You don't deserve this kind of aggravation. I'll take them off your hands.

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    Euc - your generosity and magnanimity are overwhelming!

    I'll keep you in mind (yeah right! )
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Send it to be Chris..I live a short distance from the Sig plant, OR I can take it out, and shoot a lotta ammo thru it to make sure it's strong and safe.. LOL...

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    Chris,

    Since it runs the GDs without a problem, I think that's a clue that weaker ammo and maybe the dirt build up are the problem.

    Also, though, IIRC, your 226 is an ST, right? ST means it's a stainless slide running on a stainless frame. I actually talked to Ernst Langdon about his 220 ST that he used to win the 2003 IDPA Nationals, and he said even with the improvements in stainless steel, galling is still a problem, just not as bad as it used to be. He really, really emphasized keeping the frame/slide rails lubed - liberally on any stainless gun.

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    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Chris
    You can send em to me, and I'll evaluate em for ya......might take a time to send em back though hehehehe
    then again, maybe we can trade our toys for a bit.

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    I had problems recently with a SIG GSR. It was a rental and very dirty. The ammo was Blazer and the mag was Wilson.

    Fully 20% of the rounds were FTF (Failure To Feeds). No other type of malfunction. The gun was accurate as I expect from a SIG, but for crying out loud 20 failures in 100 rounds? It was driving me nuts.

    I thought that S&B was loaded a little hotter than most. Is this not the case or is it just widely variable? I shoot S&B in my P228 all the time and have had a zero malfunction rate with it clean or dirty. Is your P226 a 40 S&W or 9mm?

    -Scott-

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    I'm shooting 9mm Scott - and yes most folks have said they reckoned S&B is hotter than some std pressure stuff tho I didn't really feel that with this batch I am shooting up. I am soon going to clean up the 226 and as I mentioned will give the rails some gentle and modest lapping to ensure no irregularities.

    Last reassemble I used Tetra grease and the persistence of that seemed pretty good but as Tangle mentions, there could just be a whisper of galling with SS running on SS - certainly tho - adequate lube is paramount.

    Bob - tell ya what - to save me sending the SIG up to you - just send me a case or two of good ammo - I'll shoot it :hand25:
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Chris,

    Do you know if Sig is using the same SS in their slides & frames? Galling is almost unheard of since Ken Lau discovered using two different formulations of stainless cured the problem.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Od Might have hit on it but still its almost unheard of anymore

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    OD - I have not explored the ST metallurgy so hard to say. It certainly shouldn't be an issue.

    I will get a better idea when I clean gun - which I have been puttiing off all morning!

    I am thinking that if there was any galling (it is unlikely with adequate lubing) but if present then It'd be at a very micro level. When rails clean and delubed I'll use an eyeglass to make a close inspection as well as a trial dry fit again.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Further update

    Ok folks - those still not bored outa their skulls by now - here is latest.

    One thing I have proven is that I am not as observant as I should be by far - instance el thicko here with the bust extractor claw on P12.45!

    Stripped 226 and after removing recoil spring put slide back on to feel for resistance. Holy moly - felt like rails were coated with sticky fly-paper goo! Not sure what the viscocity scale is but if clean gun grease was a 1 - then this felt like a 10! The grease had thickened a lot as well as being, predictably, pretty blackened. This was Tetra grease, the previous time I'd used Militec1 grease. Worth remembering I'd put some 250 rounds or more thru.

    One other thing which really highlighted my crap observation was - the resistance I had felt before on dry slide movement to rear was in fact due to the slight depression needed on hammer as slide goes over it - probably only a few thou but it adds to the load a bit. Hold hammer right down and move slide and it is free enough. I am embarrassed to call myself an engineer sometimes!

    So - full clean up, and for reassembly this time I have used Militec1 oil - working it well into surfaces and then removing excess. While this may not be as persistent as grease it should reduce the ''thickening'' effect after heavy use. I also used a Dremel mop with mild paste to mirror shine the contact area on hammer to slide, and also the slide contact component itself - the sorta center bar you see. This could marginally reduce that drag component.

    I'll put some rounds thru this evening with any luck before a club meeting - at least a coupla large mags of std vel - and see how it runs. I suspect it will run perfect and so will then know to clean more often and maybe not use grease. Plus of course knowing that even when faulty on std vel ammo - it eats +P no problem.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    I'm amazed you've gotten a 226 to stop working there.

    The inside of my range gun looks like someone vomited carbon everywhere - hasn't been cleaned all year and has eaten somewhere between 5-8k rounds.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

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