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COMMENTS ? Your Opinion ? Rookie Cop

4K views 52 replies 21 participants last post by  Lawrence Keeney 
#1 ·
Please post your personal opinion on his arguments for a Hi Cap 9mm handgun.
I copied this from another forum.
I will reserve my own comments until later.
I know that some of these arguments are quite old but, we have a lot of new members these recent days.


"I don't have a ton of experience shooting or as a cop (you're still pretty much considered a rookie in the NYPD until you go over 5 years) but I have seen and read enough to make me think that hi-cap 9mm is the way to go for self defense. Here are my arguments and I look forward to some feedback.

-Avoiding reloads: I don't care how fast you are at doing it, it still takes valuable time. I can keep banging away while you're reloading a revolver or 1911. You're only a good shot while you've got bullets to shoot, and reloading means time taken away from aiming and firing.

-Help is on the way: I recently went to a call where a guy had jumped out of a high window during the night to commit suicide. Despite the fact that a number of people heard the loud bang when the guy hit the interior courtyard, no one called us until dawn when the body was visible. One loud noise was just not enough to worry people enough to call 911. My guess is that this mentality may apply to gunfights as well. A couple of shots may not rouse some sleepy neighbors for long but a sustained string of shots will get my buddies rolling in my direction. This may not help me actually "win" a fight but may help in getting a bad guy caught or getting myself medical attention.

-Cover: A hi-cap 9mm gives me some rounds that I can send downrange to buy time for my partner to find cover. Maybe it keeps my opponent's head down for a second or two allowing us to retreat or flank him. The time bought may allow someone with you to bring another weapon to bear or allow your family seconds more to run or lock interior doors.

-Practice: 9mm is cheap. We don't get paid well here in NYC for what we deal with, and I suspect a lot of other people here are short on cash too. Cheaper ammo means more time on the range for me. If you've backed out of going shooting even once because of money then I think its an issue worth considering.

-Multiple assailants: Spread the love! I wouldn't want to deal with more than one perp and have only a handful of bullets before needing to reload. Even if you have an extra mag with you, an extra hi-cap mag means you can hang in a fight longer. "Shots fired" is a priority call here, and I suspect it is everywhere. Enough bullets might keep your opponents in place and at bay until help arrives.

-Time: I've kind of touched on this already, but it deserves special mention. I'm a big fan of buying time. Even if I haven't killed an attacker or even stopped him from continuing to attack, extra rounds give me time. Time to think and plan or time for help to come. If my initial reaction to the incident was one of surprise then every second I can keep an attacker's head down is time for me to recover psychologically.

-Intimidation: I get the sense that a lot of people think that the fact that they own a larger caliber handgun may cause a perp to think again and back down. I can tell you that I've never heard of anyone saying anything but the other guy had a "black" or "silver" gun. This includes cops involved in gunfights. If you believe a perp is going to think "Damn, that guy has a .45..I'd better get out of here" I disagree with you. If the gun's presence doesn't make the guy take off, its type won't make a difference. I guess if it makes you more confident, then its a good thing but I'd still rather have the extra rounds.

-Aim: I'm sure some will disagree with how important it is or how much it affects them, but I think 9mm's lower recoil means less time to recover and aim and those fractions of a second may come in handy.

-SHTF scenario: 9mm is available.

I know hi-caps are expensive for non-LE and hopefully that will all change in a few weeks. Outside of all that, I hope some of you will see that getting them is worth the price."
 
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#27 ·
ExSoldier, Did I read that correctly? You would prefer a 9mm handgun round to a .223 rifle round based solely on the bullet size??? I will have to completely disagree with that thought process. If I am running and hiding I would prefer the rifle, 30 rounds instead of 15. Much higher energy, and once you get a bit of cover it will be alot easier to connect with the rifle than the pistol.
 
#28 ·
BTW I DO NOT THINK that all shooters that choose to carry a Hi Cap firearm are "Spray & Pray" shooters.
I DO think that THIS person absolutely displays some (not so well hidden) Spray & Pray mentality.
I just want to be clear on that.
If any defensive shooter carries a higher capacity firearm and "said firearm" is reliable and accurate...then that is fine with me.
They should not feel over confident & I should not feel "under confident" with less rounds.
I want to see people CARRY ~ I don't so much care exactly what they carry as long as the firearm is not junk.

I also have a vested interest in people shooting well enough so that I don't hafta worry about catching a stray bullet in the brain when I'm walking my dog two blocks away.

My overall impression of this person is that a bit more firearms proficiency really should be on the menu for him.
Just as a shooter and not necessarily as LEO. There are a few key indicators that more hours of "down & dirty" handgun training would help.
In fact he comes right out and admits the fact that he does have a ton of experience.
Since he realizes the fact that he is lacking a bit of experience...hopefully, his opinions on FIREPOWER are not set in stone.
Reloading the carry pistol should be a fluid & automatic process & not "Much Real Time or Thought" should be required to accomplish the task.

The idea that multiple shots being fired is going to bring help or back~up sooner/quicker borders on the absurd...as a valid reason to fire off multitudes of shots. That point of his is stretching things a bit.
There IS an argument that CAN be made that if it's ever necessary to send out large volumes of "Cover Fire" that more available rounds would obviously be better than less rounds.
It seems to me that Point and HIT would always be better than Point & Hope AKA Spray & Pray.

Cheaper ammo is true. It is cheaper to practice with 9 than with the other more major caliber's. I do get the feeling that no matter how inexpensive 9mm ammo is...that this shooter is still not practicing enough to raise his confidence level in himself.

Multiple assailants: Same argument as above but, what will really allow a defensive shooter to "hang in the fight" longer will be awareness & the ability to hit. Will MORE bullets be better? Sometimes yes, having more will be better.

This reason: " If my initial reaction to the incident was one of surprise then every second I can keep an attacker's head down is time for me to recover psychologically."
No Comment.

If it is necessary to draw & fire your weapon there should be no time for the BG to evaluate your bore size.
I agree that no criminal perpetrator with your impending death on his mind will care what size the muzzle hole is.

9mm recoil as VS other caliber's is relative to the individual shooter.
I would suggest that Concealed Carry people who are recoil sensitive or are uncomfortable with heavier recoil stay with a lower recoiling weapon. That makes sense to me. I would also think that people who live in areas that are really gang prone might be better served with either a higher cap weapon or a lower cap weapon with more extra mags readily available. I don't see much advantage of one option over the other.

SHTF ~ Ammo is available...I take to mean that if there is ever a catastrophic national emergency...AKA N. Korea Nukes the United States...9 mm SURPLUS ammo will be more available & common than 10mm ammunition.
I guess so but, don't know how that relates to anything here since different people will always "stock up" on different amounts of ammunition. To make that argument you would need to switch to .22 rimfire.

I sill come back to whatever firearm a citizen feels comfortable with and shoots well should be a great firearm for them to carry.
Maybe (in the future) if things change in the United States to the point where large roving bands of marauding killers are prowling & roaming everywhere then I'll strap on a couple of Hi Cap 9mm firearms (maybe three) & a knapsack full of extra magazines.
For now & at this point in time I'm staying with lowly single stack .45acp. & a few fast mag swaps close at hand.
 
#29 ·
I agree....BEARLY

cjm5874 said:
ExSoldier, Did I read that correctly? You would prefer a 9mm handgun round to a .223 rifle round based solely on the bullet size??? I will have to completely disagree with that thought process. If I am running and hiding I would prefer the rifle, 30 rounds instead of 15. Much higher energy, and once you get a bit of cover it will be alot easier to connect with the rifle than the pistol.
That was a touch of my wry tongue-in-cheek humor. I was referring to a BEAR encounter. Both rounds are puny and substandard and I'm not a great fan of the AR-15 platform, either.
 
#30 ·
QK, good post!

I have heard some say" Hey, if I run out ,we have the same [ammo/weapons] I'll just use yours" Not in this lifetime! Heard a shotgun instructor [ dont remember who ] say,"Hey dummy, if you haven't solved your problem W/ 8 rds of 12g buck, why the heck are you irritating him?"
 
#32 ·
I agree w/Mr.Edmonds: He seems overly concerned with waiting for "back up" to help him out.
Maybe he needs to focus on solving the problem himself.
IIRC NYPD can carry either a DAO SIG 228, a S&W 659(or what ever the current DAO model number is) or a Glock 17/19? That kind of narrows down his decision making process doesn't it?
The 10 New York magazines are gone as well as the FMJ ammo, the rest is a training/software issue, NIT a wihch gun/hardrware issue.
Rob
 
#33 ·
CLASS3NH said:
I carry both types, Hi Cap and "low cap" weapons. the preference is mine and mine only. I feel confident enough with a 5 shot wheelie with a couple of speed loaders, or a Hi cap pistol with 3 spare hi caps. I'm not the "spray and pray" type, and if I were I'd carry one of my MAC 10s with tons of ammo. I feel that the area where I'm traveling to is responsible for my personal mode of carry, and the choice of weapon I'm going to carry for that particular day.
If you're going to have the spray and pray mentailty, a good look at your compitence shold be a priority, along with a good insurance policy against wrongful death lawsuits

i agree with all of this i have carried and do either a 9mm with 18 rounds 45 with 8 or 38 snubbie with 6 all depends on weather and what i want to carry im confident with 6 shots of non +P 38 as i am 8 45's or 18 9mm's
 
#35 ·
I think the most important thing I've discovered in this thread is that I need to remember that people see the world through THEIR circumstances not in general. My Oregon scenario is a very real one and supports cover fire, where as the thought of it in NY is down right negligent. Neither is wrong.

Good conversation though. As for hi-cap verses low-cap, people are set in their ways for many reasons. Just keep evaluating your position. I was a died inthe wool 1911 7+1 five years ago. What made me switch to 9mm 17+1? Training. Training that debunked many internet and gunrag myths, and giving up my prejudices to support my favorite gun for the one that works best. It's a tool, not a talisman.
 
#40 ·
Euclidean said:
Probably the same reason I do. Even though I think 5 will most likely do it, I don't want to be sitting there with an empty gun in the aftermath.
I don't know Euc, it kinda sounds like the reason to carry TWO speed loaders is to have more ammo in case you run out of ammo in a gunfight - not to reload after the gunfight. Why would you need two for that?

My only point is that if you knew, I mean really knew, you would be in a gunfight with a handgun, would you deliberately choose a gun that holds 5 rounds plus two speed reloaders rather than a gun that holds 15-17 rounds?
 
#41 ·
oregonshooter said:
...It's a tool, not a talisman.
Actually, it can be. Consider, if you will, that we are told that if we look soft, we become a target. If we look hard, we may be avoided. Well, if the presence of a gun causes us to radiate an aura of confidence and control such that we are perceived as hard, perhaps we'll be avoided. In that sense, the gun does, indeed, become a talisman that wards off evil. And for that, it doesn't matter what kind/caliber gun it is.

Just don't get cocky about it and go do things you wouldn't do if not carrying.
 
#42 ·
Tangle said:
My only point is that if you knew, I mean really knew, you would be in a gunfight with a handgun, would you deliberately choose a gun that holds 5 rounds plus two speed reloaders rather than a gun that holds 15-17 rounds?
If I REALLY knew that I was going to be in a gunfight in advance . . . I would NOT be there!! Why look for trouble? [This assumes civilian. LEOs HAVE to go where there may be trouble.]

But being prepared, in case of trouble is another story.
 
#43 ·
LenS said:
If I REALLY knew that I was going to be in a gunfight in advance . . . I would NOT be there!! Why look for trouble? [This assumes civilian. LEOs HAVE to go where there may be trouble.]

But being prepared, in case of trouble is another story.
Of course, no one would be in a gunfight if they could avoid it. But we must think there could come a time when we couldn't avoid using a gun to preserve our life or why do we carry a gun in the first place? So if our life could depend on our gun, would we rather have one that holds 5 rounds or one that holds 15 rounds?

The point is, if we face only one BG, five shots to the COM or two to the COM and one to the head may work IF every shot is a good, solid hit. But what if we're moving, the threat is moving, is only partially disclosed, there are two threats, he/they are about to shoot at us, etc. and we miss a time or two? Now we have only three shots left to overcome two threats. Do we really want to put ourselves in a deadly situation with a minimal amount of ammo in our gun?
 
#46 ·
Tangle said:
Just curious, what platform do you like?
M1A/M-14. I've owned an AR and I likely will again (I know I'm in somebody's will to get his and he's in the 80's...so I won't turn it down for the family connection....). But if I had a choice on gun & caliber to use in a combat situation, I'd take the M-14 hands down.
 
#47 ·
It all boils down to this:

#1. I'm paranoid.
#2. Being paranoid is good.
#3. I'm more paranoid than some and less paranoid than others.

I'm still thinking we all subconsciously compensate to adjust to a universally perceived threat level. I made that thread a while ago, but at least consciously we're all worried about something different.

But consciously I know that I have my carry gun for the same reason I have my insurance. I also know there are holes in my coverage, but the fact is I keep the insurance anyway because it covers the most likely problems I could face. I know not every gun has universal application in all situations and you can't name one that does.

Person A goes for 12 round magazines. Person B simply carries two guns with 6 rounds each. Are they so different?

I'll never understand the reasoning that you can miss 5 or 6 times and then suddenly triumph in the real world... in paintball games where no one can really tell who got hit first sure, but people who get hit by real slugs tend to react a little! It sounds harsh but I know if I miss all those shots in a row, my goose is cooked and it doesn't matter how many I have left.
 
#49 ·
Euclidean,
What it really boils down to is this...

1. All handgun rounds are poor performers.
2. There are only two things we can do to increase their effectiveness.
a. Place a shot in the CNS zone (practically impossible on a moving target)
b. Place multiple shots in the tightest group you can in the cardio triangle.

2.(a) Is not likely.
2.(b) Is the reason for hi-caps.

It has nothing to do with having extra rounds to miss with before getting "serious." It has nothing to do with "spray and pray" mentality.

It has everything to do with having a small poor performing platform (handgun) and maximizing it's effectiveness.

Paranoia would be packing 500 rounds of .223 and an AR15 pistol under a trench coat.

That's a far cry from having a gun the same size as one you might describe as a "non-paranoid" gun that carries twice the ammo in an equally poor performing caliber.

Why must the drama be added to such a seemingly simple and logical choice in handguns? Because it is not about a logical decision, but an emotional one for most.

Here's my criteria for selecting a CCW handgun:
1. The one that you can shoot best in a major caliber (9mm+)
2. The one that carries the most rounds without sacrificing #1
3. The one that conceals best without sacrificing #2 or #1

1911 8+1 verses Glock G17 17+1
1. 9mm shoots best (rapid followup)
2. G17 beats 1911 on #2
3. 1911 beats G17 on #3

Since #1 and #2 take precedence over #3 (I can dress around the gun), why would I choose the 1911?

I like the trigger on my 1911 much better, I like the caliber much better, but those are feel goods considering the trigger is not that big of a difference (I've tested the two in accuracy and time) and the .45 is not significantly superior in ballistics with todays wonder HPs, so why would I carry it when the logical decision would be the G17?

PS. What insurance policy are you counting on in a gun fight? The one that says most will not require a reload, not require more than 3 shots or be farther than 3 ft? (those are deadman stats by the way)

My insurance policy is going to be the most bang for the buck. But again, to each their own.
 
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