COMMENTS ? Your Opinion ? Rookie Cop

This is a discussion on COMMENTS ? Your Opinion ? Rookie Cop within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Oregonshooter . . . you apparently aren't familiar with NYC! There isn't 5' between buildings. Buildings are usually wooden structures. One 9mm round could easily ...

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Thread: COMMENTS ? Your Opinion ? Rookie Cop

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Oregonshooter . . . you apparently aren't familiar with NYC! There isn't 5' between buildings. Buildings are usually wooden structures. One 9mm round could easily make it thru 3 or 4 apartments!

    Everyone has to be responsible for every round legally and civilly, although LEOs may get more slack in criminal prosecution, they take it in the chops for any innocent victims at the civil lawsuit!

    Cover fire is totally inappropriate in such a crowded city! This mentality is definitely "spray and pray" and nothing else.

    All shots should only be taken when you can clearly aim at the BG and have a good chance at hitting him. Good training (Jim Crews, Randy Cain and Gabe Suarez) has taught us that recoil is really not an issue if you learn how to hold the gun properly and perform the proper follow-thru after the shot.

    Drugged up people (NYC is a haven for this) can easily take 6-9 CM shots with 9mm and not go down . . . this is well documented in LE shootings. The .45 is a better solution for these folks and one can learn to reload VERY quickly. I think it was Jim Crews who first taught me that "you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight"!

    There is a lot of evidence that the OP has watched too many Western shoot-em-ups to get his opinions of what/how a police shooting should go.

    When I was working for the PD, dispatch and other cruisers all knew where I had stopped and when. If it was potentially dicey (almost everything in NYC qualifies), backup was sent when possible. We wouldn't have relied on someone hearing WWIII calling 911 for the dispatchers to send backup. Radios were used to call in the troops if the situation looked bad. Assuming the OP works in an area where radio reception works, that is the preferred way to call for help, not throwing bullets thru the walls of nearby apartments!

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  3. #17
    Member Array oregonshooter's Avatar
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    Every location is unique, but before you throw the baby out with the bath-water, consider the following scenario.

    Hiking in woods of Oregon you stumble onto a "grow" and are met by the local tender who is packing an AR15. You are in the open and the nearest tree is 30yrds away.

    That guy is going to get one hell of a rain of bullets while I beat feat to the cover. You want to run and not lay down something for him to think about, then go ahead.

    In NY the situation is obviously different. I'm just saying... Never say never, and don't get too far up on the high horse over a tactic that has it's place.

    So using that tactic and that scenario, do you want to change mags on the way to cover because you have 7+1 or keep shooting your 17+1 9mm?

    There are a lot more I could illustrate and like I said, a few training sessions in FoF would really drive the point home. People think because they can shoot a stationary cardboard target fast that they know what will be needed in a gun fight.

    Unless you have done FoF and tested the "reality" of dynamic shooting, I think you are doing yourself a great disservice and your tactics are going to be tainted by it.

    No mag change is fast enough people!

    LenS,
    His hail of bullets being more of a calvary call than one or two is complete BS, and I don't agree with it at all.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Oregonshooter,

    I take it most of your response was not aimed at my reply.

    Is the guy walking in the Oregon woods LE or civilian?

    - If LE, he should be carrying HIS AR15! I don't want to tangle with a bear with just my 9mm handgun.

    - If civilian, I don't know as I'm not familiar with your laws. If an AR15 (same reason as above) carry is acceptable there, that's what I'd be doing with my 1911 as a backup.

    I'll never say never to cover fire, but the background has to dictate that it is safe to do. NYC is packed with buildings like the stocked cereal shelf in a grocery store and you just can't get away with cover fire without serious risk to hitting an innocent in another apartment.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    And, to follow-up ORShooter's scenario: (real one)

    PD pulls over suspects in a routine stop. Perp 1 emerges, firing, taking the passenger-side, exiting, officer down. The PD driver sees his partner fall, and exits, firing (S&W 5906- 15 rounds). Total range is +/- 15 yds. The officer empties, reloads, empties again, before the perp is "down". 13 hits for 30 expended. Perp 2 ran away.

    I don't know about you, but volume had it's own quality. Running around two vehicles, ducking and bobbing, with the BG showing no inclination to disengage, I'd be pretty damn happy with a 50% hit ratio. I just bought two single-stack 9mm's, that I plan to start carrying, but I believe the BHP will see more travel in the "late hours and obscure places"....

  6. #20
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    The original text indicates that this person is a cop in NYC, so it must definitely be assumed that there are always no-shoots downrange. Some of his justifications seem to be based on an attitude that would apply in the Oregon scenario, but which I, as a civilian who works in NYC, find rather frightening. What would, in Oregon, be considered suppressive fire or cover fire or whatever, in NYC definitely becomes "spray 'n' pray".

    Having said that, he is absolutely right - the more bullets you can carry in one package the better. The ideal handgun would be belt fed through some kind of flexible chute that, perhaps, would wrap around the shooter's waist like a belt and then go to the gun.

    However, we've got to deal with practical weapons (ie, i'm sure someone could produce a belt fed 1911 or whatever, but it wouldn't look like the gun it was based upon). So we have several choices. Smaller cal with more rounds in either single or double stack magazine, extended magazine, larger cal double stack.

    Extending the mag just a little to pick up an extra round or two to reach the old politically correct 10 rounds is OK; it doesn't overly distort the gun/mag combination. 15 rounds in an extended single stack 45 is rediculous. Going to single stack in smaller cal to pick up an extra 3 or 4 rounds is ok if we aren't giving up too much in the way of "stopping power" which is a whold 'nuther can of worms, but is a consideration.

    Double stacks are great if your hand is big enough. Mine isn't. Between the fat grip and the far forward trigger on a glock, I'm pushing the trigger to the left more than pulling it straight back. As far as going to a Para double stack 1911 in 45, well, that's just not an option for me.

    As far as recoil control is concerned, yes, with the proper techniques, the 1911 in 45ACP is quite controlable. But if you apply those same techniques to a 1911 in 9mm, I expect that it would be far easier to control. Personally, I found the HK P7 a sweet gun to shoot, but don't know how it would be as a double stack.

    So everything becomes a trade-off in some manner. Lotsa bullets would be great. Little or no recoil would be great. Mini-nulcear warheads in each round would be great. Now, compromize each of these areas to some degree to come up with a realistic pistol for the situation.

    Personally, at home I have a 1911 with a 10 round McCormic mag in the gun and a 4 mag pouch with 4 more 10 rounders in it (but I can't close the flap on it because the mags are too big). My intent is, when I get out of this People's Republic and can carry, to carry that same gun with 2 of the mags in a pouch that holds them vertically and then have the other two in some kind off pouches that hold them parallel to my belt in SOB location. Or I may find that I'll just get a 38spl 2inch revolver and a speed strip.

    However, some of his attitudes are not appropriate for a cop in NYC.
    There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    I carry both types, Hi Cap and "low cap" weapons. the preference is mine and mine only. I feel confident enough with a 5 shot wheelie with a couple of speed loaders, or a Hi cap pistol with 3 spare hi caps. I'm not the "spray and pray" type, and if I were I'd carry one of my MAC 10s with tons of ammo. I feel that the area where I'm traveling to is responsible for my personal mode of carry, and the choice of weapon I'm going to carry for that particular day.
    If you're going to have the spray and pray mentailty, a good look at your compitence shold be a priority, along with a good insurance policy against wrongful death lawsuits
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Thumbs down 9mm v 5.56mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by LenS
    - If LE, he should be carrying HIS AR15! I don't want to tangle with a bear with just my 9mm handgun.
    Actually, given THAT choice, I'd take the 9mm over the AR-15. The nine has a bigger bullet.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    I think Class3NH has this one nailed...in fact just about everybody here has raised a good cogent argument. No need to add my .02.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #24
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grnzbra
    The ideal handgun would be belt fed through some kind of flexible chute that, perhaps, would wrap around the shooter's waist like a belt and then go to the gun.

    .
    Hey that's awesome!

    I want one, where do you get em!

    The Marshmallowist

  11. #25
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    Hey that's awesome!

    I want one, where do you get em!

    And it has the added advantage that you don't have to limit the physical size of the round. Since belt fed guns tend to be fed from the side, the ammo doesn't have to pass through the grip so you wouldn't have to limit to something that would fit within a grip that you could actually grip.
    There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
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  12. #26
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH
    I carry both types, Hi Cap and "low cap" weapons. the preference is mine and mine only. I feel confident enough with a 5 shot wheelie with a couple of speed loaders, or a Hi cap pistol with 3 spare hi caps...
    I can't help but ask this, if you feel confident with a five shot wheelie, why do you carry a couple of speed loaders?

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    ExSoldier, Did I read that correctly? You would prefer a 9mm handgun round to a .223 rifle round based solely on the bullet size??? I will have to completely disagree with that thought process. If I am running and hiding I would prefer the rifle, 30 rounds instead of 15. Much higher energy, and once you get a bit of cover it will be alot easier to connect with the rifle than the pistol.
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

  14. #28
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    BTW I DO NOT THINK that all shooters that choose to carry a Hi Cap firearm are "Spray & Pray" shooters.
    I DO think that THIS person absolutely displays some (not so well hidden) Spray & Pray mentality.
    I just want to be clear on that.
    If any defensive shooter carries a higher capacity firearm and "said firearm" is reliable and accurate...then that is fine with me.
    They should not feel over confident & I should not feel "under confident" with less rounds.
    I want to see people CARRY ~ I don't so much care exactly what they carry as long as the firearm is not junk.

    I also have a vested interest in people shooting well enough so that I don't hafta worry about catching a stray bullet in the brain when I'm walking my dog two blocks away.

    My overall impression of this person is that a bit more firearms proficiency really should be on the menu for him.
    Just as a shooter and not necessarily as LEO. There are a few key indicators that more hours of "down & dirty" handgun training would help.
    In fact he comes right out and admits the fact that he does have a ton of experience.
    Since he realizes the fact that he is lacking a bit of experience...hopefully, his opinions on FIREPOWER are not set in stone.
    Reloading the carry pistol should be a fluid & automatic process & not "Much Real Time or Thought" should be required to accomplish the task.

    The idea that multiple shots being fired is going to bring help or back~up sooner/quicker borders on the absurd...as a valid reason to fire off multitudes of shots. That point of his is stretching things a bit.
    There IS an argument that CAN be made that if it's ever necessary to send out large volumes of "Cover Fire" that more available rounds would obviously be better than less rounds.
    It seems to me that Point and HIT would always be better than Point & Hope AKA Spray & Pray.

    Cheaper ammo is true. It is cheaper to practice with 9 than with the other more major caliber's. I do get the feeling that no matter how inexpensive 9mm ammo is...that this shooter is still not practicing enough to raise his confidence level in himself.

    Multiple assailants: Same argument as above but, what will really allow a defensive shooter to "hang in the fight" longer will be awareness & the ability to hit. Will MORE bullets be better? Sometimes yes, having more will be better.

    This reason: " If my initial reaction to the incident was one of surprise then every second I can keep an attacker's head down is time for me to recover psychologically."
    No Comment.

    If it is necessary to draw & fire your weapon there should be no time for the BG to evaluate your bore size.
    I agree that no criminal perpetrator with your impending death on his mind will care what size the muzzle hole is.

    9mm recoil as VS other caliber's is relative to the individual shooter.
    I would suggest that Concealed Carry people who are recoil sensitive or are uncomfortable with heavier recoil stay with a lower recoiling weapon. That makes sense to me. I would also think that people who live in areas that are really gang prone might be better served with either a higher cap weapon or a lower cap weapon with more extra mags readily available. I don't see much advantage of one option over the other.

    SHTF ~ Ammo is available...I take to mean that if there is ever a catastrophic national emergency...AKA N. Korea Nukes the United States...9 mm SURPLUS ammo will be more available & common than 10mm ammunition.
    I guess so but, don't know how that relates to anything here since different people will always "stock up" on different amounts of ammunition. To make that argument you would need to switch to .22 rimfire.

    I sill come back to whatever firearm a citizen feels comfortable with and shoots well should be a great firearm for them to carry.
    Maybe (in the future) if things change in the United States to the point where large roving bands of marauding killers are prowling & roaming everywhere then I'll strap on a couple of Hi Cap 9mm firearms (maybe three) & a knapsack full of extra magazines.
    For now & at this point in time I'm staying with lowly single stack .45acp. & a few fast mag swaps close at hand.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink I agree....BEARLY

    Quote Originally Posted by cjm5874
    ExSoldier, Did I read that correctly? You would prefer a 9mm handgun round to a .223 rifle round based solely on the bullet size??? I will have to completely disagree with that thought process. If I am running and hiding I would prefer the rifle, 30 rounds instead of 15. Much higher energy, and once you get a bit of cover it will be alot easier to connect with the rifle than the pistol.
    That was a touch of my wry tongue-in-cheek humor. I was referring to a BEAR encounter. Both rounds are puny and substandard and I'm not a great fan of the AR-15 platform, either.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  16. #30
    Member Array N.M. Edmands's Avatar
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    QK, good post!

    I have heard some say" Hey, if I run out ,we have the same [ammo/weapons] I'll just use yours" Not in this lifetime! Heard a shotgun instructor [ dont remember who ] say,"Hey dummy, if you haven't solved your problem W/ 8 rds of 12g buck, why the heck are you irritating him?"
    Oh yeh? Well this was sent from the scary black electrical box under my desk, so there!
    "It aint how good you shoot, it's how cool you look doing it." [Fred Sayer 1994]
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