COMMENTS ? Your Opinion ? Rookie Cop

This is a discussion on COMMENTS ? Your Opinion ? Rookie Cop within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Please post your personal opinion on his arguments for a Hi Cap 9mm handgun. I copied this from another forum. I will reserve my own ...

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Thread: COMMENTS ? Your Opinion ? Rookie Cop

  1. #1
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    Question COMMENTS ? Your Opinion ? Rookie Cop

    Please post your personal opinion on his arguments for a Hi Cap 9mm handgun.
    I copied this from another forum.
    I will reserve my own comments until later.
    I know that some of these arguments are quite old but, we have a lot of new members these recent days.


    "I don't have a ton of experience shooting or as a cop (you're still pretty much considered a rookie in the NYPD until you go over 5 years) but I have seen and read enough to make me think that hi-cap 9mm is the way to go for self defense. Here are my arguments and I look forward to some feedback.

    -Avoiding reloads: I don't care how fast you are at doing it, it still takes valuable time. I can keep banging away while you're reloading a revolver or 1911. You're only a good shot while you've got bullets to shoot, and reloading means time taken away from aiming and firing.

    -Help is on the way: I recently went to a call where a guy had jumped out of a high window during the night to commit suicide. Despite the fact that a number of people heard the loud bang when the guy hit the interior courtyard, no one called us until dawn when the body was visible. One loud noise was just not enough to worry people enough to call 911. My guess is that this mentality may apply to gunfights as well. A couple of shots may not rouse some sleepy neighbors for long but a sustained string of shots will get my buddies rolling in my direction. This may not help me actually "win" a fight but may help in getting a bad guy caught or getting myself medical attention.

    -Cover: A hi-cap 9mm gives me some rounds that I can send downrange to buy time for my partner to find cover. Maybe it keeps my opponent's head down for a second or two allowing us to retreat or flank him. The time bought may allow someone with you to bring another weapon to bear or allow your family seconds more to run or lock interior doors.

    -Practice: 9mm is cheap. We don't get paid well here in NYC for what we deal with, and I suspect a lot of other people here are short on cash too. Cheaper ammo means more time on the range for me. If you've backed out of going shooting even once because of money then I think its an issue worth considering.

    -Multiple assailants: Spread the love! I wouldn't want to deal with more than one perp and have only a handful of bullets before needing to reload. Even if you have an extra mag with you, an extra hi-cap mag means you can hang in a fight longer. "Shots fired" is a priority call here, and I suspect it is everywhere. Enough bullets might keep your opponents in place and at bay until help arrives.

    -Time: I've kind of touched on this already, but it deserves special mention. I'm a big fan of buying time. Even if I haven't killed an attacker or even stopped him from continuing to attack, extra rounds give me time. Time to think and plan or time for help to come. If my initial reaction to the incident was one of surprise then every second I can keep an attacker's head down is time for me to recover psychologically.

    -Intimidation: I get the sense that a lot of people think that the fact that they own a larger caliber handgun may cause a perp to think again and back down. I can tell you that I've never heard of anyone saying anything but the other guy had a "black" or "silver" gun. This includes cops involved in gunfights. If you believe a perp is going to think "Damn, that guy has a .45..I'd better get out of here" I disagree with you. If the gun's presence doesn't make the guy take off, its type won't make a difference. I guess if it makes you more confident, then its a good thing but I'd still rather have the extra rounds.

    -Aim: I'm sure some will disagree with how important it is or how much it affects them, but I think 9mm's lower recoil means less time to recover and aim and those fractions of a second may come in handy.

    -SHTF scenario: 9mm is available.

    I know hi-caps are expensive for non-LE and hopefully that will all change in a few weeks. Outside of all that, I hope some of you will see that getting them is worth the price."
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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  3. #2
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    Ah, yes, the old "spray and pray" doctrine. Kinda sucks for anyone other than the BG who happens to be downrange and not behind hard cover.....

    Matt

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    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    Might check the last 20 years of NYPD SOP 9 (NYPD's Firearms Discharge Report) To see how many MOS reloaded in course of shooting.

    To each his own.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC135
    Might check the last 20 years of NYPD SOP 9 (NYPD's Firearms Discharge Report) To see how many MOS reloaded in course of shooting.

    To each his own.
    i agree to each his own

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    "I don't have a ton of experience shooting or as a cop (you're still pretty much considered a rookie in the NYPD until you go over 5 years) but I have seen and read enough to make me think that hi-cap 9mm is the way to go for self defense. Here are my arguments and I look forward to some feedback.

    Has me at hello.

    -Avoiding reloads: I don't care how fast you are at doing it, it still takes valuable time. I can keep banging away while you're reloading a revolver or 1911. You're only a good shot while you've got bullets to shoot, and reloading means time taken away from aiming and firing.

    Granted and I can see why a LEO in NYC would be terribly worried about capacity. However, larger bore sizes are more comforting without giving up much in capacity. I personally would rather face down a junky with something starting with "4".

    -Help is on the way: I recently went to a call where a guy had jumped out of a high window during the night to commit suicide. Despite the fact that a number of people heard the loud bang when the guy hit the interior courtyard, no one called us until dawn when the body was visible. One loud noise was just not enough to worry people enough to call 911. My guess is that this mentality may apply to gunfights as well. A couple of shots may not rouse some sleepy neighbors for long but a sustained string of shots will get my buddies rolling in my direction. This may not help me actually "win" a fight but may help in getting a bad guy caught or getting myself medical attention.

    He's proposing that we indiscriminately fire to attract help? What? He lost me here. A whistle, or better yet perhaps a cell phone instead perchance?

    Plus I don't know about you guys, but I don't have an LEOs immunity to civil and criminal charges for firing indiscriminately and hitting someone.

    -Cover: A hi-cap 9mm gives me some rounds that I can send downrange to buy time for my partner to find cover. Maybe it keeps my opponent's head down for a second or two allowing us to retreat or flank him. The time bought may allow someone with you to bring another weapon to bear or allow your family seconds more to run or lock interior doors.

    Covering a lane of fire while clearing a building means you cover a lane of fire, not that you run about shooting the place up! I can see his point where he might need cover fire at times but I still don't think this applies to me as a civilian. I don't have a partner to cover for one thing.

    -Practice: 9mm is cheap. We don't get paid well here in NYC for what we deal with, and I suspect a lot of other people here are short on cash too. Cheaper ammo means more time on the range for me. If you've backed out of going shooting even once because of money then I think its an issue worth considering.

    Priorities. That's what it's all about.

    -Multiple assailants: Spread the love! I wouldn't want to deal with more than one perp and have only a handful of bullets before needing to reload. Even if you have an extra mag with you, an extra hi-cap mag means you can hang in a fight longer. "Shots fired" is a priority call here, and I suspect it is everywhere. Enough bullets might keep your opponents in place and at bay until help arrives.

    Eh, if I have someone "at bay" I'm getting the heck out of there. I do agree a reload is a prudent measure and multiple reloads is even more prudent especially for police work. This multiple assailants argument has never made any sense to me anyway. Your assailants are not going to sit there and let you empty your 33 round magazine into each of them 5 or 6 rounds at a time.

    -Time: I've kind of touched on this already, but it deserves special mention. I'm a big fan of buying time. Even if I haven't killed an attacker or even stopped him from continuing to attack, extra rounds give me time. Time to think and plan or time for help to come. If my initial reaction to the incident was one of surprise then every second I can keep an attacker's head down is time for me to recover psychologically.

    Shouldn't we focus on ending the threat ASAP and not extending it?

    -Intimidation: I get the sense that a lot of people think that the fact that they own a larger caliber handgun may cause a perp to think again and back down. I can tell you that I've never heard of anyone saying anything but the other guy had a "black" or "silver" gun. This includes cops involved in gunfights. If you believe a perp is going to think "Damn, that guy has a .45..I'd better get out of here" I disagree with you. If the gun's presence doesn't make the guy take off, its type won't make a difference. I guess if it makes you more confident, then its a good thing but I'd still rather have the extra rounds.

    I agree.

    -Aim: I'm sure some will disagree with how important it is or how much it affects them, but I think 9mm's lower recoil means less time to recover and aim and those fractions of a second may come in handy.

    9mm and .40 S&W don't really feel all that different to me, honestly. I disagree.

    -SHTF scenario: 9mm is available.

    Yeah you'll never find .45 ACP in any significant quantity...

    I know hi-caps are expensive for non-LE and hopefully that will all change in a few weeks. Outside of all that, I hope some of you will see that getting them is worth the price.

    I agree you should use your preferred firing platform to its fullest advantage. If you prefer a double stack magazine by all means get the largest capacity you can.

    He seems like a good guy and he'd be interesting to talk to for perspective, but I think he's overgeneralizing a bit. Let's compare apples to apples for a bit. NYPD carries the Glock 19 right? How is 15 rounds of 124 grain 9x19 significantly so much better than 12 rounds of 230 grain .45 ACP? I submit that it is not, but rather another viable choice in a large and oversaturated market.

  7. #6
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    Nothing wrong with 9mm , just not for me. If 7 or 13 rnds . in a fight don't do the job, you are in deep $%^& anyway.

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    I'll echo - ''each to his own".

    Carrying as I do 15+1 9mm does not tempt me to try any spray and pray - shot placement (attempted) would be same whether 9mm, .45acp or even bigger. Every round must count.

    I agree re economy for practice, but I could well practice with 226 and decide to carry the 220 - both being very close in operation. This is a personal thing - and I'd never feel I have to really justify my choice - I have rationalized to my own satisfaction.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Member Array joe/OH's Avatar
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    It seems like most of the points are made from an LEO perspective - which is cool. Being somewhat new to CCW - I've realized that much of the advice out there is LEO based - and often does not apply to us non-LEO guys.

    As far as price of ammo - I'll say it again. Reload. If you want to shoot to the point where cost is a concern - reload. If that gets too cost prohibitie - then cast. Don't compromise on caliber choice due to cost of practice - there is no need.

    I'm not saying 9mm is a compromise - but it's not a reason to me to shoot 9mm over something else. Availability? I have nearly 2,000 .45 rounds sitting next to my bed - freshly reloaded. Ha! :P

    Follow-up/less recoil - he may have a point. But again - if that is a concern - heavier gun also solves the problem.

    I have no problem with 9mm - my main complaint is those thick blocky hicaps! I like my slim concealable 1911. :)

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    Unhappy

    Plenty of good responses on this, so being that I have my own opinions on caliber,I want to address something else. His thinking bothers me. Civilian or LEO, we all should have a "plan A" and a "plan B"[c d e f---] for bad days. His thinking seems to indicate that when the "SHTF", he's off and running in "Plan B" only. Rather than "Oh crap! Pop pop good--pop pop good. It's , pop pop pop pop pop pop- where are they-pop pop pop pop pop pop-c'mon guys-pop pop pop pop ect. Makes me uncomfortable. Any one else?
    "Every round must count" P95
    Last edited by N.M. Edmands; November 16th, 2005 at 11:14 PM.
    Oh yeh? Well this was sent from the scary black electrical box under my desk, so there!
    "It aint how good you shoot, it's how cool you look doing it." [Fred Sayer 1994]
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    Member Array oregonshooter's Avatar
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    Why is it that people on the internet who carry low round count pistols seem to always think someone with a hicap is a "spray and pray" shooter?

    He has some valid points, most of which can be proven in FoF. I think if more armchair shooters spent some time "shooting" at real people in realistic situations with Sims/Airsoft there would be less people walking around with 6-9 shots in their guns.

    The proof is in the puddin.

  12. #11
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    COVER FIRE!?!?!

    *** is this guy thinking?
    The Marshmallowist

  13. #12
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    Probably about saving his hide and wining the fight. Is that so obsurd?

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    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    Why bother winning the fight if you are going to lay down cover fire in an urban environment in a non-warfare situation? I'd rather be shot.

    The families of the grannies lying face down dead in their cheerios due to your negligent firearms discharge will have criminal charges to file as well as a whiz bang civil suit. Negligent homicide is the first extra sticky charge I can think of.

    So while you are being sodomized in the state "pokey" (pun intended), you are secure in the knowledge that your family is safe and sound under a bridge.

    Unfortunately, aftermath planning IS a tactical consideration.
    The Marshmallowist

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    You assume there are "no-shoots" in the background. Without the assumption the argument falls apart, and cover fire looks to have it's place eh?

    Cover fire or "suppression fire" has it's place. People don't want to admit that because they are scared to death of litigation, but it does not take much imagination to see where it would be valuable.

    Never say never. Unless you truly believe that all CHL fights are 3x3x3?

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    This persons mindset is not idiosyncratic to Law Enforcement. Lots of ordinary defensive shooters have the exact same thinking.
    Just a little bit too much Spray & Pray "tucked away" in there & a bit too much stock placed in the ability to just keep throwing lots & lots of lead in the general direction of the threat/problem.
    And a bit more time needs to be clocked in on effecting fast reloads.
    His confidence level in himself and his ability to protect himself is not quite "up there" where it should be. Just my opinion.

    The thought of defensive shooters or LEOs laying down a blanket of Cover Fire in my community is not a good thought for me.

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