For forensic enthusiasts.

For forensic enthusiasts.

This is a discussion on For forensic enthusiasts. within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Since that grim day, Nov 22 1963, there has been so much contraversy, conspiracy theory etc - re the actual events when JFK was assassinated. ...

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Thread: For forensic enthusiasts.

  1. #1
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    For forensic enthusiasts.

    Since that grim day, Nov 22 1963, there has been so much contraversy, conspiracy theory etc - re the actual events when JFK was assassinated. Discovery Channel filmed an investigation by non-gov folks - and it cleared up a lot IMO.

    Not sure when the program first came out (last 2 years anyways - not older) - some may have seen it but I found it most interesting - a documentary on the whole deal but in particular, a very detailed look at shot #2 - the so called ''Magic Bullet". It was also shown that even that rather ''basic'' rifle could be fired three times in 8 to 9 seconds with accurate hits at 60 yards - if it didn't jam!!

    I edited down very tight the main thrust of the magic bullet experiment, to keep vid file small - but it satisfied my curiosity anyways. The set up used gel torso forms, with skeletal internals - all set at highly exact distances and angles - to reproduce to the n'th degree the actual circumstances.

    It showed that after hitting JFK, the bullet could and would have had some tumble - thus the 3cm entrance wound in Connelly, and then forearm damage and finally thigh embedding. In this experiment, extra bullet deformation thru hitting two ribs and not one, lost it enough remaining velocity for the thigh penetration not to occur - perfectly logical explanation of this result IMO.

    Take a peek - see what you think, assuming my file uploads OK.
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    Chris - P95
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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Ill check it out if i can later been busy today

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    Small nudge for this - still interested to know what folks think of it.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Very interesting, too say the least.
    Im just sceptical about using dummies. Even if they had two actual cadavers, I would think that replicating the same bullet path is kinda quincidental. Why did he just only use one test, once? In a real test I would think he would try it a few more times. Still, I cant argue the results.

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    Thing with the dummies was Greg - they were painstakingly made, and so somewhat of a one hit deal, instance for example the double rib shattering, and so not re-usable. Prior to this shot tho they did do same test with the original moulds and before that - numerous tests with a melon and cardboard ''witness'' sheets.

    To keep vid small I had to just use this section - the culmination if you will - of a huge effort at accuracy and reproduction of things, as close just about as was humanly possible.

    Having seen the preceeding stages and all the hard work - have to say - it answered the doubts for me - to a major degree re the probability.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Sorry to be a pain about this, but one shot isn't proving anything in my mind. Its just not conclusive.
    Thing with the dummies was Greg - they were painstakingly made, and so somewhat of a one hit deal, instance for example the double rib shattering, and so not re-usable.
    Why didn't they make 20 or more dummies?

    I guess in reality there is no solid ballistic test out there. Just way to many variables in wound ballistics to make it a science. If there was a true measure, no one would argue what cartridge is best for Defence or Hunting. That just wouldn't be any fun, now would it?


    Did you see the test where they took several shooters, and tried to have them shoot 3 accurate shots in whatever amount of time, under the same conditions. None could do it. Oswald was only a sharpshooter in the Marines.

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    I'd say Greg that because of the intense work that went into making the torso's, a large number would have been overly costly, in time and cash.

    I agree - test repetition and consistency would always go a long way toward greater credence - no doubt of that. I doubt if anything can be ever taken as totally conclusive anyways.

    As I said the lead-up to this was IMO pretty exhaustive - this bit I showed was a culmination of some pretty hard work and did for me anyways - show that multiple wounds from one bullet could be a possibility. Earlier on, they had a sharpshooter doing rapid fire vs accuracy tests and he did succeed more than once in achieving 3 shots accurately enough in 8 to 9 seconds - tho in one or two string attemps he had jams - feed problems IIRC - so it may be said that there was some luck involved to get three consecutive shots off.

    Let's just say - it is so far the best result I have seen over all the years, that shows the possibility of one bullet injuring two people.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Sorry to be a pain about this, but one shot isn't proving anything in my mind. Its just not conclusive.
    This isn't the first program the Discovery Channel did on the "majic bullet." The last one I saw, they even used a 64-65 Lincoln with dummies at speed (6mph?), shooter on a 60ft. scaffold. He easily repeated the shot.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

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    In this prog' OD they did the moving car tests at 10mph. Rather successfully!
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Cool. I always thought 3 accurate shots, in a few seconds wouldn't be super difficult, at that distance. Even with a p.o.s. Carcano. Now imagine if he used a 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser, which happens to be my favorite rifle round (not that it actual matters, I just love that round! Talk about a magic bullet ).

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Im still not buying it to many bullet holes in jfk and connely to be one bullet

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    OD*
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    Thanks Chris, is this the one they used laser tracking with live subjects also?
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

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    P.S. ... Chris,

    If you enjoy forensics, you should get a copy of Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight. W. French Anderson, M.D., fascinating read.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

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    I think the test was as well done as possible. Like the announcer said the test was as close as possible.

    Having said that, the shot can never be exactually duplicated, to many factors. And no matter what is done there will always be those that swear there were 10,000 shots fired!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    OD - well, lasers were used a lot yes - the high power green. They mod'd a Mannlicher to operate a switch when trigger pulled and this was used on travelling car with same size models.

    I have read several forensic books over time - most when doing medical training back in 60's - so have seen a good number of assorted after effects of shootings.

    Rick - for the many ''fans'' of conspiracy theories - there will never be a saisfactory answer anyways - speculation is way more fun
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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